on a significant amount of spectrum, 500 megahertz is what right now they're focusing on, um, and be you can get them focusing on some of it in the commercial space and some of it in the government space, and you can try to move each of those forward, you have the likelihood that you will have sort of around rolling out of spectrum over time. some of it sooner, some of it later. um, we certainly have pushed hard, you referenced it for our desire for 1755 to 1780 megahertz to be made available. i know that ntia's looking at 1755 all the way up to 1850. we believe the focus at least initially should be on that initial swath, and everything should be done that can be done short of, you know, causing harm to our national security, of course. but everything that can be done should be done to reallocate that spectrum. and then, you know, to matt's point earlier about verizon and at&t winning the lion's share of 700 megahertz, you know, i don't

want to be a defender of those two, yet sprint and t-mobile didn't participate in the auction. what we're hoping is we can bring a very large swath of spectrum to market at one point in time, 100, 200 megahertz and allow everyone who wants to participate the chance to come there and buy fungible assets. >> host: and that's "communicators" this week on c-span. chris guttman-mccabe of the wireless industry, matt wood of free press and paul kirby of "telecommunications reports." gentlemen, thank you. the report, if you're interest inside reading the 15th annual wireless competition report of if t fcc is hyperlinked a at our web site, c-span.org/communicators. ..

>> ranking member barney frank >> i want to emphasize that nothing is agreed to until everything is agreed to.

and the parties are still far apart on a wide range of issues. >> the debt limit is the legal limit on borrowing by the federal government, and since 1962 has been raced 74 times. the last time in february 2010. learn more and all the process of raising the debt ceiling on line with the c-span video library. search, which, -- watch, clip and shear. it's washington your weight. >> two committees held a joint hearing on the situation in somalia. some of the issues examined by members included famine, terrorism, piracy and government corruption. witnesses included several current and former state department officials including the principal deputy assistant secretary of state for african affairs. this to an to an half hour hearing chaired by representative christopher smi smith. >> subcommittee will come to order, and good afternoon,

everyone. we are holding today's hearing for the purpose of examining u.s. policy regarding the failed state of somalia, the possibly of recognizing a break what areas such as somaliland, and a continuing problem of somali piracy around which the obama administration has built a program. somalia's instability has encouraged other criminal activity beyond its borders endangering the stability of the entire horn of africa. somalia once again heads the annual list of failed states. and the current issue of "foreign policy" magazine. this featured african country has held the dubious distinction for the past four years. sudan, chad, zimbabwe and the democratic republic of congo all have experienced horrific conditions during this period, but none of them could overtake somalia at the top of the list of the world failed states. since the fall of the president, in 1991, the united states has been involved in addressing the consequences of somalia, having

no functioning government in mogadishu and effectively ruled the entire country. this lack of governance have resulted in somalia being engaged in a chaotic civil war that has embedded the growth of islamic fundamentalism and piracy. you managing, pluto and security conditions continue to deteriorate across south-central somalia. in the past two years more than 22000 civilians have been killed, and estimate 1.1 when people displaced, and at least 476,000 somalis have fled to neighboring countries. somalia is currently experience in what is considered the worst drought in the horn of africa since the 1950s. as a result of this drought and the continuing conflict, nancy lindborg, assistant secretary of usaid bureau of democracy, conflict and humidity assistance will testify today that some to .85 million somalis are in need of humanitarian aid.

mr. brigety, will testify that somalis comprise the largest refugee population in africa. that represents more than 750,000 people in the greater horn of africa region, 120,000 have arrived in refugee camps in the region since january of this year. in 2003, young leaders, other radical islamic group that the bush administration attitudes list of terrorist organizations one organization known as al-shabaab. the objective of this group was just having a greater somalia under sharia. since 2007 al-shabaab has increasingly controlled territory in somalia, and by late 2008 the transitional federal government, or tsg, has lost control of most south-central somalia to insurgent groups.

u.s. officials are concerned that al qaeda and its allies in east africa continued to pose serious threats. al qaeda poses a direct threat against u.s. interests and allies in east africa. while al-shabaab appears more focused at this point in carrying out attacks against somali citizens, the tfg and african union peacekeeping forces in samarra, it has our threaten to attack neighboring countries including ethiopia and kenya. for far too long somalia has been a cancer on the horn of africa and elsewhere on the continent. criminals from somalia have not only played surrounding countries but have been reportedly involved in drug and human trafficking as far south as south africa. however, the most series involvement of somalia an international criminal activity is by far is piracy. pirates attack in the waters also bought and and the horn of africa, including those on u.s. flag vessels, have brought

renewed international attention to the long-standing problem of maritime piracy. according to the eastern national maritime bureau, at least 219 attacks occurred in the region and 2010, with 49 successful hijackings. somali pirates have attacked ships in the gulf of aden and a long somalia eastern coastline and outward into the indian ocean. increasingly sophisticated tactics, these pirates now operate as far east as, in good weather, and as far south as the mozambique channel. somalia's pirates economy has grown substantially in the past two years with rancid now averaging more than $5 million. the annual cost of piracy to the global economy ranges from some seven-$12 billion by some estimates. two years ago secretary of state hillary clinton announced a four-part plan to combat somali piracy that includes building somali capacity, and will to

rein in the pirates, coordination with the attacker, and encouragement of cooperation growing government and shipping companies in defending vessels against somali pirates. yet the threat posed by somalis is not confined to their territory or surrounding waters. in recent years, dozens of young somalis, many of them from the area can have left united states, return to somalia to fight with al-shabaab. on august 5, 2010, more than a dozen somali americans permanent residents were arrested. attorney general eric holder announced 14 people were being charged with providing support for al-shabaab. two indictments in minnesota's stated that two people raise funds for al-shabaab detailing 12 money transfers in 2008 and 2009. the danger to america posed by al-shabaab and its supporters in this country continues to be

very, very series. this domination and to become secretary of defense last month, cia director leon panetta noted that al-shabaab threat quote, tedious homeland is on the rise. he also expressed concern that as al qaeda leadership in pakistan comes under pressure, that it is not able to be defined as a safe haven in somalia. since the fall of the mass -- the last national government in 1991, somaliland both the autonomous areas of somalia, have been the only areas with effective governance. somali man seeks international recognition while it truly does not. the question of whether the united states and international committee for the recognizing somaliland or support it integration into greater somalia at some future point requires ongoing an examination and discussion. consequently, today's hearing offers a viable opportunity to

examine u.s. policy on a variety of issues involving somali. now i return to ranking member, mr. payne, for comments he might have. >> thank you very much. i would like to thank you and mr. royce for calling this very important joint hearing on assessing the consequences of the failed state of somalia. and it's a pleasure to see my good friend, mr. royce, acting chair the african subcommittee at some point in the past and has maintained a strong interest as has congressman smith. and so it's a pleasure to be here at this very important hearing. unfortunately, i will have to leave a few minutes before 2:00. i've been invited to be a part of the presidential delegation that will celebrate the new state of south sudan, and must

leave in an hour or so to juba to be a part of that great achievement. but i will stay as long as i can can, and i certainly look forward to your insights and challenges facing somalia, the witnesses here. and how the united states can best address the root causes of these challenges. and let me also say that i really commend our witnesses, all of whom have distinguished backgrounds in dealing with somalia and other difficult places in the world, especially the honorable donald yamamoto who has spent so much time in the area and has been responsible for so many achievements that we have seen in a very troubled parts of the world where he has served.

i have had a long history of engagement with somalia. my most recent trip to mogadishu in april 2009 gained international attention, because of the mortar attack on my plane as i left mogadishu. but that was not my first visit to mogadishu, nor was it the first attack on a plane that i was boarding, the first happened in early 1992 when i attended and the plane was fired on as we were getting ready to leave mogadishu, but was not airborne, as was the recent attack in 2009. of course, my good luck, they

didn't shoot straight and, therefore, i am here to give testimony. i first traveled to mogadishu in the summer of 1993, just following the killing of a pakistani peacekeepers. that was two years after he had been overturned and the country had evolved into a state of lawlessness and warfare. you may recall the united states and other u.n. related countries went to see that the children could get the food that was being sent to somalia, but the distribution was being prevented by the warlords. and there was food there, but children were dying because the warlords would not allow the food to be distributed. and so my first trip was then,

and i returned back again in late 93, because i, from the state of new jersey, we have a large number of pharmaceutical corporations, and i asked them if they would participate in a pharmaceutical drive that unicef cosponsored with me to provide medications for children to help in this situation since the children were suffering so much. and we had 100% cooperation from the new jersey pharmaceuticals to provide the medications that we needed. as a matter of fact, my recent trip to years ago, it was noted by some of the participants that

remembered the pharmaceutical drive that brought millions of dollars of donated products to the children of somalia. after leaving mogadishu on my first trip in 93, i then went to one of the largest somali refugee camps in kenya. the camp was even larger than they can't we talk about today, which exists in kenya. which i've also visited several times, most recently a year or so ago. the refugee situation of somalis throughout the region has always been a very serious question and problem for the surrounding countries. the people continue to suffer in these rough conditions, but the spirit of the somali people has always impressed me. throughout the toughest time,

somalis remain hopeful and find ways to run a business, make the best of the situation in other ways. and i greatly admire their fortitude and stick-to-itness, even creativeness, really creating a new industry as we know about. the four years ago, actually back in, four years following my 93 trip in 1987, i went for the first time. i met with former president of somaliland, and we not also recently with the current president, salon yo. most recently a year ago in nairobi before the elections. speaking by phone to him recently. i was the original sponsor of a

relation of somaliland in 99 which called on the mistakes but provide assistance to and give somaliland observer status at the united nations. and to recognize their accomplishments. as you know, somaliland, puntland and mogadishu or somali was all controlled by different colonial powers, and i think that the reason that some have succeeded, for example, somaliland, is because some colonial powers gave more autonomy to the locals and provided them with the opportunity to govern. were as in mogadishu there was very little. this is the only resolution to be introduced in congress that focus on somaliland in two decades at that time. i also met with president for roll out of puntland several times. he testified at a hearing i cheered on somali in 2009 where

i encourage the leaders of somaliland, puntland and mogadishu to band together for the future of somalia as a whole. finally come it was in april 2009 and i traveled to mogadishu after all the violence and a people that had occurred during the ethiopian invasion. i met with sheikh ahmed, journalist, journalist and a prominent coalition of women organizations who are very, very active at that time in mogadishu. these were things that we did not hear about, but that was going on inside of the violence. as a matter of fact, i was there the day following the u.s. navy seals taking down three somali pirates. and, of course, i was asked at a press conference, al-jazeera was there, what i thought about

this, and i made it very clear that piracy is illegal, that the united states of america would not tolerate the intrusion of a u.s. ship, and that i totally supported president obama and the u.s. navy seals in the taking down of the three somali pirates. i think that may have had something to do with al-shabaab taking a shot at my plane when i left. in 2009, i introduced a resolution calling for the recognition of the transition of the federal government, the tfg, by the u.s. greater involvement, greater engagement on the political and she military in crisis, and putting this dilution of the diplomatic presence in mogadis mogadishu, once conditions improve. as you know, the tfg remains a weak government but despite recent shakeups there are glimmers of hope. last month president ahmed and speaker of parliament sharif

agreed to hold elections by august 20, 2012. was also decided that a new prime minister would be appointed. the tfg is planning a sponsorship by the wind to bring together all the somali stakeholders. it is unclear whether somaliland officials will attend. president ahmed must be given support as he attempts to increase dialogue of stability and fight off al-shabaab which continues to wreak havoc on the population. as you know, over the past several years more than 22000 civilians have been attacked, an estimated 1.1 million, 1.1 million people displaced, and others have fleet neighboring countries. this is simply unconscionable. many people in washington

rightly focus on the criminal aspects of piracy. i spoke with secretary clinton while traveling with her in nairobi when she met with president sharif, expressed that the views of piracy was a symptom and not cause of somalia's problem. we need to work on that strategy now, in october to do strategy which we will hear about. i think it's something that needs to be discussed more. and just in conclusion, while the state department has stated that it will not recognize somaliland, state has committed to progress and stability both in somaliland and puntland and what they have achieved, this broadening of inclusion will allow more flexible and effective dialogue. we have questions that we will be asking the panelists here, but in deference of time i would just simply conclude that we do have a problem with one-fourth

of the country's population is either refugees or internally displaced. this year and a 100,000 people have fled to neighboring country. 20,000 of them did so just two weeks ago because of the drought situation. and so i look forward to hearing from our witnesses. and without i will yield back the balance of my times. take it very much, mr. paine. i would like to yo to the co-chairman of the shooting, and a good friend. 's. thank you, mr. chairman. i, too, help a gal of the south african committee was to i would say in working with mr. payne capacity of those years, his will and to speak out was always very impressive, and i know he has to leave sometime today to speak out in terms of the situation of south sudan. but we are actually on, and afterward got the word that don had done two things. one had a press conference. and minutes later his plane was

mortared as he was flying out of town. but it is because don payne was willing and has been willing to speak out. and because of you, mr. chairman, that we have some light on this issue. and anything issue, the situation in somalia is not only to humanitarian crisis, it is also frankly a national security threat. and that's the aspect of it. ichat the terrorism subcommittee. this is the aspect of it. at the state department has been talking to us about. and the defense department. and something that we're going to look at today, because somalia was a failed state for an awfully long period of time. but no where are the consequences of somalia more evident than when it comes to international terrorism. and the threat from al-shabaab, which is as we designate it, a foreign terrorist organization.

and in the past few years, the al-shabaab threat of course has grown dramatically to the u.s. we have seen in the theater and from somalia the roadside bombs and suicide blasts that come out of this organization their militant compounds resemble have the press reports and, pakistan style terror training camps. and because of the influx of foreign fighters into this area, the neighborhoods around mogadishu are referenced by locals there, as little afghanistan's. so a year ago al-shabaab conducted the first attacks, actually outside of somalia. they killed 76 people, including one american in uganda. so there's a growing concern that al-shabaab leaders are

striving to strike targets, not just beyond somalia now, but beyond africa. a european plot was recently uncovered. it was in the works and it was uncovered. so links between al-shabaab and al qaeda in the arabian peninsula, the most active of all of the al qaeda franchises, are becoming clearer and clearer to us in the united states. they are communicating more about operations. they are working together on training. they are working together on tactics. the bomb making capability that al qaeda has, the expertise that they have there is being combined with al-shabaab's recruits. and these recruits frequently have western passports. many of them have u.s. passports. this is quite a deadly combination. and that's why last month, then cia director panetta called

al-shabaab's threat to the u.s. homeland in his words significant and on the rise. u.s. forces have begun on the offensive, of course, targeting al-shabaab leaders from the sky, but we should have a diplomatic attack as well. and that's what i would like to focus my attention here. we should targeting al-shabaab's outside source of support. the government of eritrea's support for al-shabaab is well documented. assistant secretary for africa affairs johnny carson testified to congress about eritrea's supply of weapons. to terrorists inside somalia. the u.n. security council acting at the urging of african neighbors past sanctions against eritrea demanding that the country, and i'm going to read from the sanctions year, seize arming, seize training, and

equipping al-shabaab. with al-shabaab under pressure, it is time to tackle its state sponsors, it's state supporters before this menace reaches the united states. we must have an honest recognition of the destructive role their tree is playing in the region, and designate it as a state sponsor of terrorism. i yield back, mr. chairman. >> thank you very much. i understand mr. connolly has to leave but i yield one minute to my friend for virginia. >> thank you, mr. chairman, and mr. payne and mr. royce for holding this thing. in picking up sort of what mr. was left off, i mean, the inherent instability that has long dominated somalia as a failed state has spillover effects that certainly affect the united states, national security, shipping, the shipping lanes off the gulf of aden, and

i think are of deep concern. i'm particularly interest in this hearing intended use of our panelists on the piracy aspect of this instability of there are lots of aspects, but we are seeing pirates who are more emboldened. it's a cash business. they are more and more successful in ransoming numerous ships. that is a critical shipping link that simply has to be secured. and in american history going back to thomas jefferson, we've always had an interest in that part of the world and putting an end to piracy. he we are over 200 years later doing with something similar. so i be interested in hearing what you think our options are or should be and what steps we can take to further enhance our capability to deter piracy in that part of the world. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you very much. >> just very briefly, mr. chair. as somali continue to receive a rating of a failed country, our country must continue to remain

active and expand our diplomatic commitment and support to restoring somalia. and once again i appreciate your leadership in this matter. >> i'd like to introduce other distinguished panel, beginning with ambassador donald yamamoto. he was no stranger to the african subcommittee having testified before the march at a hearing on the democratic republic of congo. he is serving 2000 as printable deputy assistant secretary of the bureau of african affairs, department of state. his prior assignments included serving as u.s. ambassador to ethiopia from november of '06 to july of 2009. and his deputy assistant secretary of state from '03-'06. we will then hear from nancy lindborg is the assistant administrator for the pure of democracy, conflict and committing assistance at usaid. she has briefly spent 14 years as president of mercy corps what she focus on international relief and development during her time with mercy corps.

nancy lindborg also served in a number of positions and nongovernmental organizations. and an advisory capacity government agencies where she worked on issues related to foreign relations and foreign assistance. we have full bios which will be made a part of the record because you're all very accomplished people. will then hear from dr. reuben brigety who is fairly serving as deputy assistant secretary of state for bureau, population, refugees, and migration at the state. in this capacity, he supervises u.s. rescue programs in africa, manages u.s. diplomacy with major international partners, and oversees the development of international migration policy. he crazy work for human right watch and has been active duty u.s. naval officer. he recent return from east africa where he worked underground with somali refugees. and we will get shortly to that area. ambassador yamamoto, please proceed. >> thank you very much, chairman, ranking member payne

and chairman royce and distinguish goods of this committee. i want to say a special thank you very much to the chairman and to you all for holding this very important hearing. and also for your very kind words for us. the promise of somalia are not isolated and solutions to them are neither easy nor one dimensional. there are signs of progress and improvement to fortify our outlook and encouraged u.s. efforts. most recently and significantly, somali national security forces under the control of the transitional federal government killed al qaeda terrorist for sealed when the car he was and ran a checkpoint in mogadishu. his death brings a sense of relief to the victims and the families of the 1998 embassy bombings in nairobi. in october 2010 as secretary carson announce the dual track approach to somalia, after careful consultation and review, and also listening to your advice for this committee and others, on the approach to

somalia, taking into consideration somalia's past and present as well as the challenges and strengths, we continue to support the stability peace process, the transitional federal government and its national security forces, and the african union mission to somalia. however, we recognize there are large pockets of stability in somalia that narrow greater u.s. engagement and have broadened our outreach to include greater engagement with somaliland, puntland and regional and local anti-al-shabaab groups throughout south and central somalia. we recognize the need to encourage grassroots support for stability in somalia and are reaching out to the aspera community and civil society to foster dialogue and peaceful reconciliation. in addition we will continue to do everything we can to provide u.n. needs to managing assistant. thanks to the dedication and sacrifice of tft forces, the al-shabaab can no longer claim control of mogadishu. or free reign to operate a

significant portion of the city. since 2007 the united states has supported this development by obligating approximately $258 million of support to the training, logistical needs, as well as approximately $85 million to support and build the capacity of tft forces. over the next year we will support new amazon trip contingents as well as tft and its need for training, equipping and logistical support. we will continue to focus on supporting the tfg spoke of process over the course of the next year. after five months of political insight being related to the tft's tenure coming to a close in august 2011, tfg present shake and speaker of parliament sharif cosigned the accord on june 9 and rededicate himself to find and enter the transition period that has been in place since 2004. ugandan president and u.n.

special representative witness the agreement. under the agreement the tfg recommitted itself to the peace process and the transitional federal charter to completing a set of transitional tasks to be monitored by the international community to the reform the apartment and holding elections for the president and speaker by august 2012. under the accord the tg appointed and confirmed prime minister muhammad ali on june 28. the accord as a sign that the tfg leadership realizes that neither the somali people know the international community have the patience to continue for incest and political infighting. it serves no purpose other than maintaining access for the office and influence for individuals. we and the international partners under the accord would be pushing for timeliness, pitch

mark over the next year, including completion of national constitution, revenue transparency and accountability, meaningful engagement with puntland and others somali stakeholders. we have expanded our diplomatic outreach with these regional authorities and partners and have traveled five times. we advocate for representation for the region in conferences and other events such as the u.n. counterpiracy focus mechanism, known as the compel a process. and a you and consultation in april. which focus on indian the transition and the joint security committee. the interaction between the u.s. and somalia is critical as we work to advance peace and security are out somalia. we are dealing with how to best adapt our travel policy for somalia, to more robust -- to

more robustly execute our dual-track approach, the city of u.s. personnel, the paramount importance when considering travel inside somalia. we will not shrink from this obligation to the current budget and find it will have an impact on our ability to effect a positive change in somalia. support for amazon trip contingents, the needs of the fledgling tfg will continue for some time. on the development and peace building side in fy 2011, somali received approximate $25 million in government support to assist our dual-track approach but we're also providing $48 million in humanitarian assistance this year as well as 80.3940 managing assistance for those who have fled somalia. even as resource constrained and budget and find a nice discount continues to do as much as possible to promote our core goal of building a peaceful and secure somalia. during 2011, we have used funding to assist some always

including the streets of mogadishu of garbage and provide streetlights in mogadishu, and provide technical assistance to the ministry of finance to combat corruption. the increasing piracy problem off the coast of somalia stems from years of instability, lack of government, and economic fragility online. the death of the tragic death of four innocent americans this past february was tragic and provide a sober demonstration of the need to do more to address this problem. my colleagues across the interagency, including political military affairs at the department of defense, have been at the forefront of u.s. government counterpiracy efforts. we must also work with somalia authorities and other regional states to enhance the capacity, to prosecute suspected pirates and imprisoned those convicted. internationally more focus should be placed on tracing financial flows in order to determine who benefits the most from piracy. both within somalia as well as

externally. through these efforts, takes place in the context of other challenges, we'll continue to support efforts aimed at reducing the piracy threat. al-shabaab and its relationship to al qaeda is a significant concern for the united states and its partners in the region. with sustained military pressure from the tfg national security force amazon. al-shabaab sold on mogadishu has dramatically decreased. the opening of additional fronts in general and lower last february has also place additional pressure on al-shabaab's ability to hold these areas. as more areas of escape al-shabaab control, the challenges for somalis to put into place effective administrations incapable of providing government and services in order to prevent al-shabaab from returning. why we see signs of al-shabaab control less than in the western region of somalia and in mogadishu, we remain strongly concerned about the impact on somalia and the region.

we continue to monitor events in somalia, including the force of al qaeda and senior al-shabaab leadership. however, as an organization al-shabaab is a multiple faction with competing objectives. and has lost significant areas of territorial control and areas of south and central somalia. al-shabaab leadership and increasingly fractured and divided with questionable support from the somali people in many areas. somalia's instability is probably generations of neglect and corruption. but a solution will be the product of generations of considerable focus, legitimate engagement and expectations of results. will continue to focus efforts on somalia in ways that grapple with its challenges, effectively and flexibly. so thank you, thank you and i look forward to your questions. >> ambassador, thank yo thank yy much for your testimony, for your insights. >> thank you, chairman smith,

chairman royce, ranking member payne, and distinguish memories of the committee. and i particularly wish you a safer journey today, congressman payne, than your previous ones. thanks very much for this opportunity to testify today on the humanitarian crisis and for your continued interest and leadership on this issue. i have submitted longer testimony for the record, and will just give you a brief species without objection is made a part of the record. >> i thought, what? >> you are full stable will be part of the record, and all of our witnesses, if you have a longer submission will also be made a part of the record. >> great, thank you. today i will give you a brief update on the situation as well as the u.s. government assistance to health a to .85 million people in need in somalia. i want to emphasize that although we are focused today on somalia, this is a regional crisis. with more than 10 million people in the country of the horn. were all deeply connected in an arc of drought, crop failure and

high mortality the crisis is further complicated by the continuing conflict in somalia. and our inability to fully and reliably reach more than 1.8 million somalis primarily in the south and parts of central somalia, and the outpouring of somali refugees into the drought stressed areas of kenya, ethiopia. they are as you now have been cyclical droughts in the horn for decades, and has resulted we have very advanced early warning systems that we established and funded, including the famine early warning system network, and the food security and nutritional analysis unit. they continually collect data and provide analysis that has enabled us to pre-positioned stocks in the region, to target our assistants working and to look at. and according to its usenet, the drought that we're currently seeing in the region is the worst in the horn of africa

since the 1950s. in somalia, the combined effect of consecutive seasons of poor or failed rainfall coupled with the conflict have resulted in rising inflation, severe crop there, very high livestock were gone and alarming malnutrition rates but as results are now 1.46 somali sore displaced and taken through the gears now 800,000 somali refugees in the greater horn. it takes indeed great resilience for the somalis to continue forward. in january 2011, our early warning system estimated that 2.4 million people in somalia were in crisis, and the latest data now indicate 2.85 million people are in need of life-saving assistance. this is a 19% increase in six months. and that means of the estimated 9.9 million people in somalia,

one in four now need international assistance to survive. in may i traveled to kenya and somalia to ensure that we're able to respond fully and responsibly as we are able to do this crisis. and also to express the commitment of the united states to the people of somalia during this critical period. oblong with u.s. special envoy ambassador john yates, i traveled in the semiautonomous region of somaliland we met with government officials as well as local and international nongovernmental associations. a while there, we met with the president who expressed his concern over the failed raid, the loss of livestock and the need for assistance, while also expressing deep thanks to the united states for our response and continued assistance. i also spoke with a civil society leader in somaliland. she said we are seeing the end

of the pastoral lifestyle as we know it. with the drought and the conflict continued lack of water and past year, we are seeing nomads migrating increase in into the urban areas including the parts of somaliland and puntland, adding strength of an already stressful situation. the impact of the drought on the people in somali is most vividly illustrated in the refugee camps in ethiopia and continue. as a result, an inability to into other parts of somalia, i visited a refugee camp in kenya and talked to several families who had lost all of their livestock, or sold their land, had no remaining assets, and thus began a long walk across somalia to the refugee camp in kenya. we are now seeing somali refugee populations arriving with global acute malnutrition rates of

30-40%. this is more than doubled the world health organizations and emergency threshold number of 15%. and we are seeing severe acute malnutrition rates at 23% in new arrivals. that's seven-eight times higher than the to-3% that is considered alarming. we are seeing a similar increase in ethiopia with even higher malnutrition data, which my colleague, dr. brigety, will discuss. but let me make this debt very simple to remember. one out of two somalis now arriving in ethiopia is a killing on. one out of three arriving in kenya is acutely malnourished. unfortunately, somalia we have significant challenges in providing you managing assistance, primarily in the south and central parts of somalia. due to the presence of armed groups, especially al-shabaab, which is a u.s. designated

foreign terrorist organization. general insecurity and lawlessness prevent aid workers from reliably reaching more than 60% of the people in somalia who need life-saving assistance. again, primarily in the south. in january 2010, the world food program suspended the operations in southern somalia because of threats and unexpected conditions created by these armed groups, particularly al-shabaab. many of the international and ngos are also unable to operate safely in southern somalia, and this lack of access has created the severe unabated humanitarian crisis and contribute to the significant outflow of refugees. in order to deliver assistance to these areas where possible, we have develop risk mitigation strategy with an emphasis on assuring our assistance region, those most in need. we have put into place basic

risk mitigation procedures, risk-based assessment, and special conditions for our grant agreements. and continue to work to ensure our programs in somalia are appropriately and accountable he managed and monitored in reaching those areas that we can. as a result we have now provided $48 million in humanitarian assistance inside somalia. this fiscal year. we have been pre-positioning supplies in the region since fewsnet began warning of the crisis in august 2010. we are helping to see 1.2 many people in the accessible areas of somalia and treat tens of thousands of severely malnourished people in somalia countrywide. we're providing health care, clean water, rehabilitation of basic water infrastructure, proper sanitation, hygiene education and supplies. and we are also working to improve long-term opportunities with our development programs with an emphasis on youth and women.

we will continue to identify additional opportunities to meet the growing and concerning needs in somalia. just two weeks ago we released 19,000 metric tons of food aid from originally pre-positioned stocks, to support general food distribution, supplementary feeding, emergence and school feeding, and mother and child feeding inside somalia. to help refugees are fleeing the country, we have provided over $76 million in life-saving assistance. again, dr. brigety will describe more. in early june we set up a horned drought task force in the region. we have elevated that just this week to a disaster assistance response team with 20 members in the region. looking ahead, and look at the most recent data, we expect the perilous situation in the horn to worsen through the end of this year. given limited labor opportunities, to an food

stocks, skyhigh cereal prices, we believe many households will continue to experience a severe situation and unable to put food on the table. we will see an increased number of households that can no longer meet their food needs in the weeks and months ahead. as unfortunate as that is, we also expect the situation in somalia to continue to decline, and will look for additional ways to provide aid for those in somalia while also providing assistance for those forced to flee. we are according our emergency response program for the ongoing development programs. we have an estimated budget of 21 million, for 2011 in our developer program. which will continue to look at the economic and political stability in areas that we can. we consider this an extremely grave situation. we thank you for your support of

our ongoing programs, and thank you for holding this important hearing today as we continue to work this issue. thank you spent thank you very much for your testimony and for working so hard to meet the needs of so many suffering people. i would like to not ask dr. brigety if he would proceed. >> good afternoon, chairman smith, chairman smith edwards, ranking member payne, and distinguished merit of the subcommittee. thank you very much for including me on this panel to review the situation of somali refugees in the horn of africa. which is one of the consequences of what many have called failed state in somalia. today, we are facing a critical emergency within what is a protracted somali refugee situation, dating back to 1988, when people in northern somalia fled to ethiopia to escape attacks by their own government.

somalis represent largest refugee population in africa with over 750,000 just in the greater horn of africa region alone. over 120,000 of those have arrived just since january of this year. a few weeks ago ethiopia open its sixth can't for somali refugees and it is already almost full. e-7 camp is currently in the works. djibouti has announced a second camp as well. and the international community continued to press kenya to permit expansion of the dadaab camp complex which is home to over 370,000 refugees, almost all of which are somalis. you already may be aware that the dadaab camps were opened some 20 years ago to house about 90,000 somali refugees, and now house over four times as many. making it the fourth largest violations in in kenya and the

largest refugee camp in the world. even in this overcrowded state, more than 1000 refugees have arrived per day over the past few weeks in search of life-saving assistance. indeed, the refugee situation has worsened dramatically in the work last month was reported new arrival in june, almost doubled if you don't -- ethiopia and tripled from what was reported in may. ironically, this may be partly a result of the success in pushing back al-shabaab that ambassador yamamoto has highlighted, freeing some who could still move to do so. though the main contribute factor remains the difficult conditions within somalia. from a humanitarian perspective, what is most critical now is addressing the desperate and deplorable state of malnutrition. which threatens the lives of many newly arriving refugee children. they have endured and the ravages of ongoing conflict,

struggle to survive the consequences of al-shabaab's construction of international food aid, in wide swaths of the south-central somalia. these to our rivals have faced the latest devastating droughts come as the administrator knows, having sold all that they have owned to survive, they have made the arduous journey, mostly on foot, for days or even weeks to reach safety and humanitarian assistance in camps in kenya and ethiopia. to illustrate the severity of the situation, the international managing committee considers it an emergency when the rate of global acute malnutrition within a population exceeds 15%. in ethiopia, as the assistant administer knows, rates are close to 50% have been reported among elite arriving refugee children. in kenya, global acute on attrition rates up to 40% have

been reported among the arriving refugee children. this situation is substantially worse than when i last visited the refugee camps integrity that you. newly arriving children are now dying in the refugee camp at the rate, two to three children every day. during my most recent visit to the region just last week, a senior advisor of the ethiopian government refugee agency, and a veteran of, told the of conditions of near death of many children as they arrive in the camps. sound so emaciated and with skin lesions so deep that you could see their bones in this goal and in their arms through their translucent skin. in his words, people are coming from somalia to die in ethiopia. we must ensure that as many as, as they as possible of these

children are saved to urgent and time interventions such as the emergency therapeutic feeding pro-grams, and rapid registration to ensure prompt access to records food distribution. though some of these activities are already underway, the level is not yet adequate to meet the considerable needs of the population. given the urgent nature of the situation, i we traveling to the horn again tomorrow and plan to visit the camps in the southeast of each of which are seeing the vast majority of new arrivals. i will be accompanied by our ambassador to ethiopia, ambassador donald booth. speed is of the essence as we seek to prevent additional deaths. and we cannot forget that this, too, is a regional crisis that will require the combined efforts of the international community. all the more so in that as my colleague testified, this drought disasters putting some 10 million people at risk throughout the horn. the appalling state of somali

refugees is a stark example of what the drought is doing to the people of the horn, and emphasizes the importance of a comprehensive response to address the needs of all those suffering from this crisis. regrettably, famine experts tell us that the worst of this regional drought crisis is still to come in the months before the next possible reins this fall. my bureau, the state department's bureau of population, refugees, and migration, which supports already gee protection and assistance efforts except for food aid, which is supported by my colleagues from usaid's office of food for peace, is in the process of programming over $63 million or more and will be providing additional funds next week when we expect a new appeal from the office of the u.n. high commissioner for refugees to which we will be responding. there are clearly many challenges still ahead. countries in the horn are understandably weary, hosting

hundreds of thousands of refugees. son, such as kenya in the early 1990s, have seen refugee inflows reached 1000 per day and very much want to avoid repeating these experiences. some -- some such as yemen are in great turmoil themselves. the events in sudan could well generate more sudanese refugees in coming months. security inside much of south-central somali is not conducive to mounting neatly successful humanity in operations that might reach of those in need where they are. for example, i understand that the efforts of the u.n. humanitarian team this week to access -- to assess areas along the border of kenya and ethiopia were derailed by their presence of roadside bombs and landmines. as a consequence, we must ensure that safe places of asylum in

the countries neighboring somalia continue to exist, and that refugees can find security as well as life-saving assistance. we will continue to work with our colleagues in the u.s. government, with our counterparts in other countries to achieve these goals. we welcome your support. we are grateful for it, and i would welcome any questions you may have. thank you very much. >> thank you very much, dr. brigety. let me begin, we do have a recorded vote, one of the final and necessary distractions that we faced during the day. and there will be about an hours worth of voting so i will ask some questions at the outset, rapidfire, and ask my colleagues come if we could all ask questions in hopes we can get it gone that way and then go to our second panel when we return. very quickly, ms. lindborg, the unmet food need obviously have outlined, catastrophic malnutrition. what is the lack of donor aid? what is the unmet need there in

dollars and cents? and is there an inability to deliver it? because of conflicts, you know, just because we can't get the security aide or the food aid to the people because of occupied by al-shabaab and the like? fewsnet has given us a great insight as to what is coming on. .. >> camps all over the world are often menaced by threats, especially to women. you find that with these as

well. and then, ambassador yamamoto, au peace keepers, their rules of engagement, are they robust enough? some suggest their actual presence hurts the tfg's ability to rule primarily because of a somali aversion to a sense of an occupying force, even if that force is benign as the au force, obviously, is. the resilience of al-shabab, dr. fromm in his testimony talks about their resilience to adapt, and what is the troop strength of al-shabab? how big is it? and are weapon withs coming through sudan, eritrea, and are any of those weapons coming from china? with regards to the pirates, dr. murphy points out in his testimony and others have pointed out in their testimony as well that there are, you

know, there needs to be a land solution. and i think that's obvious, but if you briefly could touch on that. chairman royce? we'll do all the questions so that -- >> yeah. and i'll be very brief as well. deputy assistant secretary yamamoto, if i could ask you this question: when the last administration left office, there was an internal debate over whether eritrea should be designated a state sponsor of terrorism for its support for al-shabab. um, it didn't happen at the time, but just after she left government service, former assistant secretary frazier wrote a good piece in "the wall street journal", and the theme was eritrea should be listed as a state sponsor of terrorism. and i think, you know, we've got u.n. report after u.n. report citing their support for al-shabab. the case is pretty cut and dried. assistant secretary carson

testified flat out that the government of eritrea continues to supply weapons and munitions to extremists and terrorist elements. we're trying to put them on deference, i think now's the time to press. we argue many of these problems can't be solved by military means alone. well, here's a chance for diplomacy to add teeth to this. so i put that question to you. and -- >> thanks. >> thank you. have. thank you very much. i would just like to ask with the 12-month -- and anyone can answer it -- the 12-month that will be used now for elections in somalia, do you think that the tfg will be able to handle it? what do you think the new move with the new prime minister, the contention between the president and the prime minister, and we've seen this of our third or fourth prime minister. do you think that we will be

able to see the tfg be able to put elections on a course? the strength of the au forces, do you feel that they have enough forces to containal shah babb who, as you know, is getting support from al-qaeda? and do you see whether the government is being able to win that battle? this and finally, on eritrea, as you know, i was the last member of congress to visit this several years ago -- visit there several years ago and have been able to talk to the president. i wonder in your opinion as we are going to move, and i have a lot of respect for congressman royce's position, do you think that the designation -- you know, once you get on the terrorist list, that's it

forever, and that could close off any kind of possibility. is there, in your opinion, a last-minute opportunity to see whether, you know, the president of eritrea did write president obama when he first came in saying he was interested in having some dialogue. do you think that it's, to shut it off totally ends it all? i'm not saying, congressman royce, absolutely everything points to the fact that there should be something done. or do you think a last-minute shot at attempting to see if government of eritrea could be convinced that, um, it should try to cooperate? i'm still at the point where i know once that designation goes, it stays. i mean, president mendela just was with able to get off the terrorist list last year because they said anc was a terrorist

organization in the '60s and '70s and '80s. and for a birthday present we were able to push the administration to take president mendela off the terrorist list just last year. so once you get on that list, you're there forever. so i just wonder your opinion. >> ms. bass. oh. as best you can, answer the question. ms. lindborg? >> um, thank you. just to reiterate, as fortunate as it is, we do expect that the situation in somalia will continue to decline, and famine conditions are possible. there is a concerted international effort to try to meet what are not just food needs, but their water, clean drinking water needs and the ability of people to access supplies that are still available to them. um, we're seeing about a $200

million funding gap even with the $349 million that we along with primarily echo japan, u.k. and norway have provided toward the u.n. funding appeal. again, to reiterate we have currently provided about $48.4 million. we have more in the pipeline, and we're looking hard at how we can provide that assistance. unfortunately, there is difficulty in reaching nearly 61% of those somalis who live in the south and parts of central somalia because of the presence of armed terrorist groups and the inability to reliably and safely provide assistance. in terms of diseases, because of the ongoing programs that have been conducted by usaid and others, 93-95% of somali children that we can reach have received polio immunizations. for example, to show the power of those interventions, and

we've been able to prevent reoccurrence of that. what we're most concerned about is, um, and what we're seeing as children come across the border is malnutrition, um, and diseases that are related to lack of sanitation and lack of clean drinking water. so respiratory diseases, gastrointestinal and malnutrition diseases. we're always alert for the possibility of those kinds of epidemics that are all too frequently common this these situations -- in these situations, and thus far in the camps at least we've been able to address that. the concern, of course, is as conditions continue to deteriorate in those areas that are difficult to reach. >> thank you. dr. brigety? >> congressman, thank you very much for your questions. as you noted, in the interest of time, i'll do my best to be brief, but i'm happy to elaborate in a written response, if you'd like that.

in regard to the appeal, we do not know exactly what the shortfall of that will be. mr. antonio gutierrez has said, obviously, there is a shortfall for, indeed, the entirety of the african program. he has directed unhcr to immediately obligate $20 million out of their operational reserve to respond very quickly to the crisis. he is also, i should say, traveling to the region and will be there tomorrow to go to the camps in both ethiopia and kenya. we, as i mentioned, we anticipate seeing their revised emergency appeal probably on monday. we are prepared to respond generously. i suspect that we will respond as we have traditionally responded, with about 25% of the total of that appeal. obviously; it will depend on exactly what the size of it is, but we'll be able to know as soon as we do. with regard to security, camp security is always an issue in every refugee camp. i think it's fair to say it is

particularly an issue in kenya. and that is true probably for two reasons. one is the sheer size of the camp. i don't know if you've had a chance to visit, it's massive. it really, really is mass i have. massive. there are security incidents within the camp with not a fair amount of infrequency. the kenyan interonministry --er interior ministry does have guards, but it does continue to be an issue. with regards to ethiopia, it's slightly better largely because it's even more remote than the camps in dadaab are. and, also, the nature of that population, it's at least 90% women and children. very few men that are in those camps in ethiopia. but that's going to be one of the things that i'll be looking at really intensely when i go to the region tomorrow. >> if you could let us know what you find too. >> i will. >> and thank you and be safe.

yes. >> because this is a regional crisis, the totality of the united states' assistance in the region is currently $360 million. and that is just to underscore the stresses that the refugees are placing on the drought-effected communities in kenya and ethiopia as well. so there's been -- where we are able to reliably reach people throughout the region, a generous response from the united states that has been critical for saving lives throughout the region. >> thank you. ambassador yamamoto. >> congressman, the au forces right now is up to 10,000 troops. they're trying to get to the number that we in the united nations agreed to, about 12,000 troops. they probably will not make that number. we're looking at other troop-contributing countries from west africa to southern and central, but again, we want to say that we commend the ugandans, they're doing a tremendous job and a lot of sacrifices. since the operation started, they've lost 200 troops, and we're trying to do the best we

can to provide the assistance and support that they need. as i said, over the last four years, and this is four years we've given about $258 million compare today other operations, obviously, it's not a lot of money, but we're trying to do the best we can to support the amazon as far as training, logistical support and to give them the capacity and capability to protect their troops against theal-shabaab. ultimately, the amazon troops can only do so much. this really has to be a fight, a war conducted and executed, prosecuted by the somalis themselves. and that's what we're trying to do, is to give them the support and the assistance. um, right now just something on the piracy. you know, the piracy is symptomatic of the instability within somalia. when i was first ambassador, we

saw the first cargo ship being hijacked, and they said that's not a good thing. so from that point on we've seen the rates of hijackings and hostage taking grow from about 11 ships, about 276 hostages to earlier this year about 53 ships and over 500 hostages. and that's kind of gone down now to 17 and 390 hostages. but that's because of the monsoon season. and this increase is taking place at a time when we're expanding the international presence of task force 150, 151. and so what it underscores is that the problem is, basically, not a piracy issue, but reflective of the instability in somalia. and that's an issue that we need to target and to confront. as you know, the secretary of state outlined and articulated several points that we need to do, and that's what we're trying to do and to prosecute.

a, first is the naval operations and regional capacity building looking at prosecution and incarcerations. as you know right now, the united states has taken 28 pirates and also 17 have been convicted, and the others are still awaiting prosecution. the most recent one was, of course, what sammy who's been taken to new york city. the other issue, too, is we're looking at best practices. we're looking at how we can expand and communicate and, also, disrupt piracy enterprises. and that's, congressman royce and smith, you had stated quite clearly and articulately we need to look how we can disrupt all the financial assistance that's being accumulated by the pirates and also the assistance coming in from the outside in to the pirates as well as the arms flows and other issues. the, going to your questions on the state sponsor of terror for eritrea, they were designated as a country of concern and,

therefore, it was an area, country that we are looking at not only because of its support for rebel groups not only aimed against ethiopia, but also the regional at their camp salla and other tramps inner tray ya. we're also looking very carefully at the arms woes from all countries and all areas. and one of the things we've learned in the somalia is we need to keep out ther tray yangs and all outsiders and give the somalis an opportunity to resolve the problems themselves. because, ultimately, this has to be a somali approach and a somali solution. um, the stt designation is a difficult one. it's an issue that we're discussing. we're trying to get as much evidence together and to discuss this. congressman payne, you do raise an interesting argument. the last -- >> if i could interrupt you, if you could just very briefly, our

chief specialist for african affairs on the subcommittee on the majority side will stay and hear the remainder of your comments. we are at zero on the house floor in terms of the vote, so i'm going to run over. if you could respond, dr. martin did raise an issue and then go back to your response about the maritime, the ships at that are attacked -- sea that are attacked and talks about restrictive rules of engagement. if you could speak to that as well. because as he points out, it's a harrowing experience, and he goes through great detail about the fact that the seas need to be controlled by the navy. so if you could speak to that. i do thank you all for your extraordinary testimony and your work. thank you. >> thank you very much. okay, as far as the issues on rules of engagement for piracy, the international task force 151 was set up to address the piracy issue.

the u.s. navy along with probably around 24 other countries have contributed troop -- ships, around 48, over 48 ships to look at an area that's extremely expansive and very difficult to monitor. and during the months in seasons, pirates are able to use mother ships to go really far from their bases in somalia into other areas. the red sea and then the gulf area to capture ships. it's a very difficult task. it's a very tremendous problem to get all these mother ships. but i think the rules of engagement is to, as the secretary had articulated, is to coordinate with our allied countries, but also to coordinate with all the other countries within the region to address the piracy issue. we have talked to and negotiated with countries such as stand any

ya, ethiopia, dijibouti and kenya to, and also somaliland to look at how we can address capturing these pirates, how to handle these pirates, but more important is to work with these countries as well as our international partners that there has to be assured prosecution of all the pirates who are captured and that they have to have assured prosecution, imprisonment and through the legal process and procedures. going back to what congressman payne had said on the eritrea issue, the last official visit was june of 2010, and in that process our message to the eritrean leadership has been clear and has been clear ever since, is that we extend a hand of discussion, negotiations, of opening, of discussion, of

dialogue. but we have not received any response from the government. in fact, since that time my visa to return to eritrea remains in the embassy unacted on. assistant secretary johnny carson's visa application has remained at the embassy for over a year and a half. so our position is still to engage the eritreans, to look at areas where we can engage with them. but, again, the response has been negative. again, on the sst, we continue to look at eritrea on a wide variety of areas from their gold-mining factories run by the canadian firm which is producing probably profits in excess of several million dollars for the eritreans in this year and in the future even more. we're looking at the tax collections that they obtain in the united states. we look at, also, the foreign

exchange reserves that eritreans send to eritrea and say is this according to u.s. is and international financial laws and institutions. so everything is being looked at and examined. we have, i do not wish to make any statements or comments at this point because those things are still under research. and it's not just eritrea, it's a lot of actors that are in somalia that we're trying to prevent from playing a destructive or nondestructive role. the other question is that, you asked one last thing, was that, again, on the financing, etc., for the african union, a transitional federal government. again, we work very closely with the transitional government to assure that they will address this one-year period. as you know, the kampala accord which was signed on june 9th really resolved a stalemate where we were headed into august 2011 without any resolution to the transitional government.

and so what we want to do is look at this, this agreement achieved in kampala, that in the next year how can we push the government towards those elections? the how can we -- how can we act on and implement the agreements made by the kampala accord which is reform, electoral process and to move the tfg? and those are areas that we will continue to look at and work closely not only with the tfg and amazon, the united nations, but also the regional states of the donor countries. so that's kind of a summary of the efforts that we will make. >> thank you, mr. ambassador, and thanks to all the panel. and on behalf of the chairman, we are in recess. thank you. >> thank you. [inaudible conversations]

>> the subcommittee will reconvene and consider their sitting. i'd like to now, first of all, apologize to our very distinguished witnesses for that long delay. there were 13 votes on the house floor, and, um, obviously, it took some time to complete that business. but we will now complete this hearing. our second panel i welcome to the witness table, dr. peter vomm who is director of the michael and sari africa center at the atlantic council in washington d.c. he's the incumbent vice president for the association of the study of the middle east and africa, an academic organization which represents more than 1,000 scholars and is editor-in-chief of the journal of the middle

east and africa. he was the winner of the 2008 nelson mandela international prize for african security and development. he has authored half a dozen chapters concerning terrorism and stabilizing fragile states as well as more than 80 articles in various journals and has been a, over the years, a very distinguished witness before our subcommittee, and i want to thank him for being here again today. we'll then hear from mr. bruton, a democracy and government specialist. she has worked for the national endowment for democracy, usaid and gao. as a 2008-2009 international affairs fellow of the united nations, she authored a series of prominent articles on somalia and has provided content. she has traveled frequently to the month regions of somalia --

northern regions of somalia. she is currently a fellow at the one earth future foundation. then we'll hear from dr. martin must have my who is an internationally-recognized expert on piracy and unconventional conflict at sea. he is a visiting fellow at the corbett center for marry time policy -- marry time policy and was a senior fellow at the center for strategic and budget tear assessments between 2008 and 2010. he has authored a number of books, chapters and articles on somali price, international price laws and related topics. and finally, we'll hear from dr. david shin, has been a professor in the elliot school of international affairs at george washington university since 2001. prior to that he served 37 years in the u.s. foreign service and held the following positions, among others; ambassador to ethiopia, director of east african affairs, deputy director of the somalia task force,

political officer at the u.s. embassy in kenya, and desk officer for somalia and dijibouti. moreover, he has served as the state department coordinator for international intervention in the early 1990s. so thank you, ambassador, as well for being here and all of you for your patience. dr. fromm, if you could begin your testimony. >> thank you, chairman smith. thank you very much for this invitation to appear before you today and to contribute to your assessment of the consequences of the failed state of somalia in general, and in particular the policy of the united states toward the challenges that arise. i'll just summarize my prepared testimony which i've already submitted. as we meet, the situation in somalia has reached a critical point. two decades after the collapse of the last entity that could be possibly described as a government of somalia and no fewer than 14 failed attempts to

reconstitute such a centralized authority later, the country is still fragmented and is fragmenting into multiple fiefdoms. the current transitional federal government, tfg, is limping toward the august 20th expiration of its already-extended mandate with little indication that it's made any progress since -- toward the goals that were its reason for being and existing. and while the islamist insurgency spearheaded bilal shabab has suffer ored a series of setbacks in the last nine months or so at the hands of the african union mission in somalia, to say nothing of recent airstrikes by unmanned aerial vehicles operated or at least coordinated by u.s. forces, it's far from defeated. moreover, even allowing for the most optimistic interpretation of recent gains by the ugandan and baa round yang peace keepers fighting in mogadishu, their

commanders claim to have secured barely half of the 16 districts of the city. and the total area under the effective control of the amazon portions today is actually smaller than that which the departing ethiopian forces relinquished just two years ago. finally, the fate of yemen is still very much undetermined. there is the specter of the increased -- of the existent links between al-shabab and al-qaeda in the arabian peninsula. those links expanding and proving an even greater threat to international and regional security. to say nothing of the increased threat posed by maritime piracy in the waters between the gulf of aden between the two countries and beyond. as the greek oil tanker carrying a million barrels of fuel oil which was set ablaze yesterday just 20 miles off the port of aden after a failed pirate attack attests. unfortunately, compounding its

poor political and military prospects, somalia currently also faces environmental challenges which only exacerbate the former. in this context i'd like to make five points. first, rather than being a solution to the challenge of state failure in somalia, the tfg has clearly shown itself to be a part of the problem. what we are confronting is not just political incompetence, but outright criminality. last year the u.n. security council's sanctions monitoring group for somalia document how senior tfg officials, including the deputy prime minister and other members of the cabinet, were directly involve inside visa fraud including in this one case facilitating travel to europe by two suspected al-shabab cadres. more recently, the tfg's own auditors reviewing the books for the years 2009-2010, revealed that while during the relevant period bilateral assistance to the regime totaled $75.6

million. only $2.87 million could be accounted for. the auditors determined that the balance, more than 96% of international aid, was simply stolen and specifically recommended forensic investigations of the office of the president, the office of the prime minister, the ministry of finance and the min ministry of telecommunications. anyway, is it any surprise that such an outfit has had little success in rallying even minimal public support behind it, much less accomplishing any of the basic tasks which are its reason for existence? there's perhaps no more telling indicator of the tfg's dismal prospects than the fact that no fewer than three different western initiatives to train a military force forward have recruited and trained and armed more than 9,000 troops, yet fewer than a thousand of these remain loyal. two, amazon is neither sustainable as a military

operation, nor viable as a strategy. despite its recent success in combat operations, the african union force remains limited in the ways in which it can accomplish due to lack of manpower and material. even if personnel could be found to bring the force up to the new ceiling authorized, and ambassador yamamoto testified earlier that that was unlikely, it would still be beyond delusional to think that a 12,000-strong contingent would succeed for -- where u.n. forces failed just little more than a decade and a half ago. i would add, mr. chairman, that our reliance on amazon causes difficulties for our policy objectives elsewhere in africa. take, for example, as long as the united states and members of the international community insist on backing the corrupt

and ineffective tfg, america and its partners will be constrained insofar as their ability to bring any meaningful pressure with respect to human rights. third, the resilience of al-shabab and other insurgent forces should not be underestimated, especially when the tfg continually fuel fire of local discontent. fourth, the process of devolution in the one-time somali state continues and represents a trend which after more than 20 years has become irreversible. without necessarily precluding any future federal arrangement of some sort, it seems a foregone conclusion that the political momentum among the somali is moving overwhelmingly in the direction of multiple divisions and against a heavily centralized top-down arrangement. fifth, a new approach is desperately needed if worst consequences of somalia's state failure are to be mitigated.

encouragingly, there have been various signs that parts of the international community may be finally coming, however reluctantly, to this conclusion. last fall assistant secretary carson announced a second track strategy that would include greater engagement with government officials from somaliland and puntland with an eye both to govern and deliver services. while the new u.s. policy has yet to be fully worked out to say nothing of receiving adequate resources, it is nonetheless representing a dramatic and long overdue shift. the challenge now is to be equally creative in developing the appropriate vehicles for political, economic and security engagement with the appropriate somali partners. the forthcoming posting of ambassador james swan to nairobi as the new coordinator of u.s. efforts on somalia offered the occasion for a thorough review of our policy, its implementation and the consequences thereof. certainly, if pragmatism

councils that -- counsels that we must endure another year of the tfg's existence, then by all means let's ensure that this final year is exactly that and avail ourselves of the time to carefully consider alternative paths for achieve what the somali people deserve and our security interests demand. thank you very much. i look forward to your questions. >> dr. pham, thank you very much for your testimony and your insights. ms. bruton? chair recognizes you. >> thank you, congressman smith. i wish to thank the subcommittee for inviting me to testify today and for allowing me to contribute to this assessment of the consequences of state failure in somalia. my remarks will explore the possible benefits of the proposed u.s. engagement with alternative forms of governance in somalia, in particular home grown administrations at the local, municipal or regional levels. in the interest of time, i've summarized my views in a short prepared statement which i would ask to be entered into the

record. >> without objection, your testimony and that of all of our colleagues and witnesses will be made part of the record, the longer versions. >> since october of 2010 al-shabab has suffered severe military setbacks at the hands of african union troops. the movement appears increasingly weak and preoccupied with internal power struggles. no analyst would suggest, however, that al-shabab's decline is related to the emergence of the transitional federal government as a viable alternative to radical islamist rule. on the contrary, al-shabab's decline has occurred just as international support for the tfg has visibly begun to wane. as international attention has drained elsewhere to the surprising events in libya, sudan and few news ya, and perhaps precisely because the somali conflict has settled into an interminable and fruitless stalemate between a.u. troops and the radical shabab.

washington's measured response to the bombings when it widely refused regional pressure to pump additional money and troops into mogadishu has made it painfully clear that the obama administration will not allow somalia to become a quagmire for u.s. troops or funds for force. that the utility of al-qaeda investment there is, therefore, limited and that the only real victim of the ongoing military stalemate is somalia's endlessly suffering civilian population. in light of this analysis, i wish to emphasize the following five points. first, bolstering amazon to the desired level of 20,000 troops will not end the stalemate, nor will it magically transform the tfg into a government worthy of international support. at best aggressive u.s. backing of amazon could inadvertently refocus and reenergize al-shabab and its backers and produce a

new, more energetic round of violence. the use of invasive counterterror tactics could have the same effect. two, the state department's new dual-track strategy better reflects the political reality on the ground in somalia and has the potential to do less harm than previous policies. if pursued cautiously, the dual-track strategy could provide the space and resources for a much-needed period of stabilization, normalization and economic growth in somalia. normalization is not as grand a goal as state building, but it's not a modest policy goal either. it is the shortest path to reconciliation and to the emergence of a truly home-grown solution to the somali crisis. third, though less risky than a top-down state-building approach, decentralized strategies are not a magic bullet. in fact, most of the pitfalls that have been associated with

top-down state-building efforts can quickly reappear at the local or regional level. as international funding flows downward, powerful spoilers will succeed in crowding out more legitimate voices, clan tensions can and will be aggravated, and the concerns of disempowered minority clans will often be drowned out. fourth, the u.s. can minimize these risks of stoking clannism, corruption and conflict by actively pursuing stability rather than governance as a primary policy goal. a strategy of development without regard to governance will simply require the united states to prioritize the delivery of immediate benefits to communities over any attempt at institution building or at picking political winners on the ground in somalia. fifth and last, in order for the

dual-track strategy to stand any chance of succeeding, the u.s. needs urgently to revisit its de facto decision to suspend humanitarian funding to the somali territories controlled bilal shabab. without a dramatic increase in humanitarian aid, tens of thousands of somalis will die. but providing food to somalia is not solely a humanitarian imperative. the failure to meet the most basic human requirements of somalia's population conflicts with every precept of counterinsurgency strategy and will undoubtedly deliver some desperate communities into the hands of al-shabab. thank you, and i look forward to your questions. >> ms. bruton, thank you very much for your testimony. dr. murphy, please, proceed. >> mr. chairman, thank you for inviting me to give evidence on the issues confronting somalia and the implications those issues for the united states and the wider international community.

my expertise lies in the areas of piracy and maritime terrorism. i wish to focus on the problem of piracy in particular and provide some insights into what is driving this economic crime and its implications for u.s. government policy. i have a prepared statement i'd like to summarize my views in eight points. first of all, piracy is a symptom, not a cause of somalia's current predicament. dealing with it requires engagement on land. this necessity is recognized widely and equally widely rejected because of fears that the blackhawk down experience will be repeated in some form. piracy, however, is an economic crime that requires political and economic engagement. if it is to be controlled. the concern is that piracy will become endemic the longer engagement is delayed. the number of direct and indirect stakeholders will grow, thus making the problem increasingly difficult to eradicate.

secondly, to avoid this piracy needs to be crowded out using political and economic engagementses in the areas of somalia that host piracy operations such as puntland. pirate rewards need to be decreased, economic alternatives need to be increased. the aim must be to change the incentives away from piracy and towards legitimate economic activity. thirdly, the coasts of economic -- the costs of economic alternatives need not be great. whatever the cost it will almost certainly beless than maintaining even the moderately effective naval presence that is operating off the somali coast currently. delay in land-based development will merely increase the eventual cost. my fourth point is that an approach must contain a substantial bottom-up element. development assistance is not aid. investment in judicial capacity will be necessary, but the primary objective must be to

encourage international commercial and diaspora investment on business terms. somalis are a proud and independent people, not all of whom are looking for handouts. fifth, we must work with the grain of somalia's miss's si and decentralized politics. kit not be impose -- it cannot be imposed. hopeless candidates should be discarded, but development providers should not aim on picking winners. winners will emerge, failure is to be expected. the successful will attract more support and will crowd out the less effective alternatives. the current policy of containment at sea is not risk-free for the united states. piracy has a political significance that often exceeds its economic impact. the u.s. navy is the ultimate guarantor of maritime security

globally. when shipping comes under sustained attack without an effective response has it has done off somalia, then the u.s. commitment to maritime security is brought into question, and space is created for state and even nonstate competitors to intervene to their political advantage. in a strategy paper published by the chinese communist party, for example, anti-piracy operations were described as a way china could gain a foothold in a strategically-vital region. in relation to containment, it has been suggested the united states should outlaw the payment of ransom in cases of piracy and to make this measure enforceable internationally by means of the united nations security council resolution. although it would eliminate piracy if it proved enforceable which must be in doubt, it would take time to take effect,

possibly as long as two or three years during which time the hostages, currently there are in excess of 400, would be at risk. most of those held come from developing countries which are america's friends such as india, bangladesh, the philippines and indonesia. the outcry in those countries would be loud and politically damaging. so long as the u.s.-led international community is unwilling to either intervene or engage on land in somalia, then the payment of ransom will remain the only way that hostages can be brought home. my final point that is if yemen was to fail, maritime disaccord in this region would worsen considerably. if both side of the gulf of aden were to become launch for potentially terrorist attacks, it is possible that ship operators would demand a much higher level of naval protection. if that was not forthcoming, they may seek alternative routes which would add to the cost of

boast finished goods -- both finished goods and raw material including oil and gas. economic development will crowd out islamist extremism as effectively as it will undermine piracy. once again, mr. chairman, thank you for the opportunity to be here today. i'm happy to answer any questions you might have. >> thank you very much for your testimony. ambassador shin. >> yes, thank you, mr. chairman. the administration's dual-track policy is, essentially, sound. the tfg is the only entity other than al-shabab with any claim, albeit a weak one, to speak for the somalis in that part of somalia. it extended its mandate from august of 2011 to august of 2012. and if it cannot make significant progress by the end of the extended mandate, it's difficult to imagine that there will be any support left for it in the international community. united states should, indeed, devote more development resources to somaliland and

puntland. i would also argue that the u.s. government personnel should have more flexibility in visiting puppetland and somaliland. the hard part of the two-track policy is that which calls for reaching out to and supporting anti-shabab groups in south and central somalia. the united states has not yet figured out how to reach these groups because they are, after all, under al-shabab control. whatever strategy is pursued, however, it must be somali driven and not have an outcome that by supporting subplans and small groups results in the permanent balkanization of the region. it is not united on a solution. on the issue of counterterrorism and military strikes, following 9/11 counterterrorism became the overwhelming u.s. policy in somalia and continues as a major factor. counterterrorism, while important, should not overwhelm u.s. and international community actions that might make a

stronger contribution to diminishing the influence of al-shabab in the region. military strikes need to be limited to high-value targets where the intelligence is almost incon tremendous veritable, and the likelihood of collateral damage is virtually nonexistent. it will be a mistake if these strikes become the u.s. default policy for countering al-shabab and other extremists in the somalia. a policy of military strikes and isolation does nothing to mitigate the root causes that led to the rise of and continue to generate support for al-shabab and similar organizations. on the issue of contact with al-shabab, a controversial topic, while there are rank and file members of al-shabab who have no ideological commitment and can be lured away, i just do not see anyone in a leadership position with whom representatives of the international community should be in dialogue. to the extent there is any role for a dialogue with al-shabab,

it should be done by somalis and not by foreigners. um, on the issue of piracy, i think, probably as much has been said on that as is necessary, so i will pass over that. i would only add, though, that in addition to dealing with piracy per se, there is a somali element of this that needs addressing, and that is for the international community to focus on insuring that illegal fishing in the 200-mile economic zone of somalia be dealt with, that the international community in the future not permit that to happen. there's been a bad history of that in the past. there have also been a few cases of toxic waste dumping in the waters off somalia. i think there's been a lot of exaggeration on that point, but it's important that the international community do whatever it can to insure that there not be toxic waste dumping

also. on the recognition of somaliland, somaliland should be rewarded for the relative stability that it has established and the fact that it has become the most democratic entity in the horn of africa. but i think any decision on the recognition of somaliland should be led by the africans, either the african union collectively, or individual african countries. and finally, i'd like to make a plea for greater consideration of regional economic integration in the area. i think this is a long-term goal that has major implications for the future. somalia is one of the most conflicted countries in the world, has been for a long time. i think if it's possible to identify ways to increase regional economic integration for all of the horn countries and the east african countries, it has the potential to mitigate

significantly of conflict in this part of africa. and i would thank you very much, mr. chairman, for hearing my views. >> mr. shinn, thank you very much for your testimony and for your service. let me just is ask a few questions. um, you mentioned, dr. murphy, that there are some 400 hostages. i wonder if you could tell the subcommittees how are they treated? how long have -- what's the average stay of incarceration? i don't know how else to, um, to explain it. are they tortured? any of these individuals? >> thank you, mr. chairman. yes, there's about 450 hostages currently. um, the average stay has increased. it's probably around five to six months now, and that is all to do with the time it's now taking to negotiate the ransom payment. there have been a number of stories of bad treatment.

i think it would be unfair to say that they've had, you know, pleasant treatment here heretof, but it's generally been safe. there's been all sorts of reports of their food being prepared correctly and so on and so forth. but we have, as i said, had some reports over the last six months or so of pirates being treated badly. a number of incidents of heads being submerged below the water, hostages being dragged behind ships, mock executions and so on and so forth. what is difficult, really, is to ascertain what the actual evidence for that is. we know it's occurred, but is it systematic? there doesn't seem to be a systematic pattern behind this. it seems to be related to one or two cases. however, there is concern that partly because of the drought, partly because of general migration in somalia, the pirates are attracting more people from the interior who don't have an understanding of

the sea or, possibly, an understanding of the business model that has been heretofore so successful for the pirates which is, essentially, a peaceful one. so it's a situation one has to keep under, under review. at this stage i think it's important not to exaggerate it, but it does seem to be occurring. and what we need is better and more reliable information upon which to make a judgment. >> um, have there been reports of sexual abuse, and are women among those who have been, um, detained? >> there was one woman detained, i think it was on a ukrainian ship. there was no report of any sexual harassment. um -- >> are shipping companies purposely keeping women off those ships? is. >> there are very few women in the international crewing business, yes. they tend to be officers not in the crew, but it's a very, very small proportion. i don't know if there's any particular oil to keep women out of the arabian sea theater.

>> with regards to when they are repatriated, what has been the experience of those men and the woman once they're back home? is there any signs of ptsd, or is anybody monitoring their psychological or physical health once they are freed? >> given the way that the international shipping industry works, i should imagine there's very little monitoring of what happens afterwards. the, there is no hard evidence as to what is happening to these people, and that is partly because of the way the international shipping industry does work which is to say it tends not to want crew or officers to be interviewed, people tend to be kept away from the press, we don't know really how these people are dealing with it. historically speaking, um, the vast majority of people who had been pirated never went to sea again unless they had to, and that usually meant, clearly, the people -- the lowest-paid

portions of the crew. many of the officers historically did not go back to sea again because the trauma was so significant, but we don't have particular surveys as to what has happened to the people who have been held in somalia. >> let me ask ambassador shinn if you could, you mentioned the somali dais rah and america can be part of the solution in somalia. but while remittance maintains somali families, young somalis in some number are joining al-shabab on the battlefield. do we have any sense as to how many somali emigres have gone back and are now part of the fighting? and those who are being radicalized here, what is their game plan? do we have any sense of their hostility or lack of it towards the united states? >> well, we have a fairly good idea of the numbers who have gone back and joined al-shabab, and the last figure i saw was around 30 from the united states. now, there are other members of the somali diaspora in other

countries who have gone back. larger numbers, i believe, have gone back from the united kingdom. i saw a figure of around a dozen from sweden, maybe five from denmark and small numbers from other european countries. so the total may very well be a couple of hundred by the time you add them all up. i have not seen any number on whatsoever the number of somalis in the american diaspora who have, as you say, been radicalized or who might have sent money to al-shabab. now, the fbi may have some better numbers on money transfers, but that's very hard to follow because most of that money is sent back by what is called aha wall la organization where you literally can go into a large somali mall in downtown minneapolis which i have done, and there will be a little office where a somali-american can deposit $100 -- actually, $105, a $5 commission, and that $100 will show up almost

miraculously anywhere in somalia several days later. someone will literally deliver it to the intended person, and it's very hard to track this sort of thing. so i don't think anyone knows the degree to which al-shabab has benefited from financing of the diaspora, but it definitely has. the numbers just aren't there. >> ms. bruton, you had faint praise for the dual track, you said it was less harmful than the previous policies, and i'm wondering if you and the other panelists might want to speak to how well the dual track, especially track two, is progressing. >> [inaudible] i think that the dual-track policy has really yet to get off the groundment in theory -- the ground. in theory it could work very well, and i've specified that will require the u.s. to use a very light footprint and not to use the cool-track strategy as an opportunity to pursue ends at

the local level. if u.s. pursues ends on the ground, i think the results will be similar to what we've seen in the mogadishu. i believe that the dual-track policy has been held up by the tremendous difficulties that are involved in formulating a decent strategy for engaging at the ground level, particularly in south central. and i know that usaid and other entities are working very hard to come up with such a strategy given the evolving political situation and, i think, particularly given the fear that some of this funding could ultimately go into the hands of al-shabaab, but i think the dialogue these to move much more quickly. most people who have worked in somalia will tell you it's not anywhere as difficult as you think it is. it is possible to do amazing, amazing projects with relatively little funding. and i'm personally very hopeful that dual track will be able to accomplish some of those things.

>> yes. anybody else like to -- dr. pham? >> i would just add to that. i think that we need to, also, thresh out the dual-track strategy. conceptually, i think it makes a great deal of sense, and it certainly is a movement in the right direction. but we need to thresh it out both in terms of distinctions within the secondary track between entities that are approaching quasi-state status like somaliland and puntland and more grassroots organizations which, although they may aspire to that, are a very long way from that. so i think we need to delish between that -- distinguish between that. it's good to say we're having a dual-track strategy, but unless development assistance and other things flow to put, to privilege that, it remain just a rhetorical concept. thank you.

>> mr. chairman, i might add there are two particularly sensitive and important areas where one would like to see the dual-track policy take root. one that i alluded to earlier, and that is south central somalia, the areas after al-shabaab controls, and it clearly is very difficult to work there. one of the things we're going to find out in the coming weeks as the unite government tries to deal with this horrific drought that was talked about earlier today and in this hearing is the degree to which one can actually provide food in areas controlled by al-shabaab. interestingly, they've said in the last 48 hours or so that it will now let international organizations and nongovernmental organizations into that area to provide food. they threw them all out earlier. but what we haven't heard yet is what are the conditions for

those organizations to go into al-shabaab territory. in the past, the organization has tried to extract money from these groups either assessing fees or taxes or insisting that anyone who works in their area use al-shabaab transportation companies, and this is money that ultimately ends up in the coffers of an organization that's an enemy of the united states. so it's a very, very tricky situation. on the one hand, you don't want people to be dying, somalis to be dying in this area. on the other hand, you don't want to be supporting directly or indirectly al-shabaab. the other area where the whole dual-track system is critical are in the pirate-held ports along the puntland coast. and i think this is an area where we need to be a little more innovative as to how we deal with it. right now we're entirely focused on spending between $1 and $2 billion a year with a huge naval effort in the indian ocean, and

it clearly has not worked. maybe it's time to see if there's any way of working with local communities, elders, religious leaders, community leaders, etc., in the existing pirate port areas, going in with some ideas for development assistance -- the international community collectively, not just the united states -- and seeing if there's any way to convince the elders than seeing, look, another way here. this would be hard to do because there's no way to compete with the kind of money that the pirates can offer, but you might be able to find some good-minded local leaders who would be willing to look at another way of creating jobs and employment and try to reconstruct the economy there. >> yes. dr. murphy. >> mr. chairman, if i, obviously, ebb force my colleagues -- endorse my colleagues' comments. however, i think it's important that we do not couple development aid simply to the fact that you've been a bad boy

as a pirate. the economic aid has to be spread much more even-handedly, otherwise we're rewarding malfeasance. .. >> confident the u.s. and donor, other donors will stand up and, you know, provide the sufficient amounts of money. let me ask, if i could, on human trafficking, the human trafficking report, the report has just been released a week

ago. and it points out that in previous years, trafficking victims were primarily trafficked within the country, from somali's south and central to putinland and somali land. the government made no known efforts to prevent it. i'm wondering if the international community, the government is tfg in your view are even aware that this problem is going unattended to. and obvious it's usually women and children who are the victims of human trafficking. finally, you spoke about the human trafficking and that's one the rallying cries against the government. if not the au troops? who? who would provide the necessary

lifeline too or protection, minimal as it maybe, but certainly hazardous to the troops. i do have a question, if you could about the whole issue of rules of engagement. does the au troops have a sufficiently robust mandate to protect and secondly on the high seas is our navy or the navy of other interested parties sufficiently robust in their efforts as well? those questions. >> thank you, congressman smith. i'm grateful to have the opportunity to address this question. because my memory of the suspension of the u.s. humanitarian relief delivers. it was certainly true the shabaab was attempting to collect some fees from the agencies. typically those fees were about $20,000 every six months.

$40,000 a year, for every large humanitarian ngo, it's not a huge amount of money particularly when you contrast it with the amount of funds and weaponry that they have derived from. for example, the sale of weapons from tfg troops by our european and western donors. the al shabaab can be difficult to work with. they have always been difficult. the united nations and other humanitarians have almost always succeeded in gaining access to the territories after negotiations. there are some subsets of al shabaab that certainly will refuse to allow humanitarian actors into the territory if they perceive them as political rivals. i think the instances are fairly few and far between. under the current circumstances, certainly, i think it is very important that the united states do everything possible to ensure that humanitarian relief flows

to those many, many communities that are not receiving any aid at all. we can allow our political ideas about what the al shabaab may or may not do in the future to allow people to starve today. >> picked up on the questions concerning the african union mission in somalia, amisom. when asked to acknowledge it's performance that has improved a great deal in the last year. partially because of increased trains by u.s. and european union countries, partially because of a change in command, the current commander, major general nathan from uganda is making a valiant effort.

the problem is personnel and political resources opinion -- resources. currently there are just shy of 10,000 african union forces out of an authorized strength of 12,000. earlier we heard testimony from ambassador yamamoto that sounds like they tried to do this a decade and a half ago with the insurgency that wasn't as trained. the u.n. tailed -- failed with 37,000. it's beyond delusional to think that 12,000 is going to pull it off. look at the numbers. right now amisom has roughly one soldier for every 500 people. the surge in iraq when we were -- when that was -- when that turned the tide, the ratio there

in the counterinsurgency was one u.s. soldier for every 187 iraqi. so they with woefully under resourced. beyond mere troop strength, however, you also have the issue of political agenda. you maybe able to gain space as difficult as it is, but in order to hold that space one has to have a political solution when asked -- the government has to be ready to offer services, goods to people, to hold their loyalty. and what we have in the transitional federal government is an out fit that is good for one thing. which is robbing, stealing the resources they have. in the last two fiscal years, the government offices have stolen 96% of the bilateral assistance. we have a prime minister until recently who's a u.s. citizen during the period when he was in office. the payroll account for his office was $864,000.

he was only in office about nine months. of which only $216,000 can be accounted for. $648,000 had simply disappeared just from one account. that's not the type of political figure or government that's going to inspire people to shift away and as much as they dislike al shabaab, they are not going to shift their loyalty to a institution like than behave to acknowledge what amisom is improving. it's gotten better. ultimately, it cannot hold without a political strategy. >> let me intervene here and thank you all for your patient. you've come at a difficult time as we have defense authorization, or defense appropriations both occurring people in and out. i apologize i haven't had the benefit of the fullness of the testimony today. before we conclude, let me thank you all for coming. also just pull back a little bit and ask a broader question if you care to answer.

when the people of the united states think about somalia, they will have the recollection of a loss, as i recall, 23 soldiers in the 1990s, they will see piracy, they will have a notion that that this is perhaps an ungoverned space if you will that is right for the potential for terroristic landing engagement and a potential expansion. then on top of that, you are talking -- there would be a broader concern in terms of the humanitarian problems that some of you have addressed in the brief time that i'm here. i think it's important to step back and say for a moment to say why -- no point out why is it strategic and important? that somalia at least begin -- at least we have a semblance of a vision for transition of somalia to a stabilized governing place. the stabilized government with a

stabilized government that has the potential to at least keep out the threats of those who would land there and expand for terroristic purposes or other -- or affiliate with other terroristic organizations. explain why this is important please? >> mr. chairman, let me take an -- try to answer that question if i may. i've worked on somalia affairs literally going back to the 1960s, off and on. and i think that what the is facing, i believe you quite aptly describe the american perception of somalia today. i think you are right on target. the problem is that you have an entity which has been a failed state since 1991, and if that entity kept it's problems entirely to itself, there

probably wouldn't be a great deal of concern in the united states about what was happening there. but it's gone far beyond that now. not only is it harming the somali people themselves, there are some americans who inherently are interested in the somali population, particularly the somali-american population. there's the direct interest. now that it's gone so far beyond the borders of somalia, piracy, terrorism now that has extended outside. with even american links of terrorism in the form of somali americans, some 30 of them are so who have been directly impacted and the fact that it is impacting the stability of neighboring countries which are lies of the united states, particularly ethiopia and kenya. it is an issue that i think is properly of concern to the united states government, and it is in our interest to try to do something to create -- help

create a government that can, in fact, control the country. until that time comes, my guess is these problems are going to get worse, not get better. that's essentially the rational for it. >> thank you. i approach the issue of somalia from sea and my concerns about the international maritime commons, freedom of navigation, our ability as a nation to maintain. if you like the way of life we've had for the last 200 or so years. i see the somali pirates are presenting a major challenge to that international maritime security regime. i have argued that it possibly represents the most significant challenge to the peaceful use of the sea since the second world war. how this affects the united states? is the united states is the ultimate guarantor of the maritime security system.

as i argued in my testimony, where that has challenged we need and has not responded to, that gives opportunities for competitor states. i drew an example of a statement made by the chinese communist party which indicates they are prepared to take advantage of witnesses in this area and this area specifically to gain advantage for themselves in what they view and we should also be viewing as geostrategically very important area. in fact, if anything, i'm more concerned about that, than i am necessarily about the now you see it, now you don't changes in the terroristic threats in the region. >> i've argued many, many times over that the u.s. has a very limited set of reasons for engaging on the ground in

somalia. for a long time, it's been common sense to assume because it's a security vacuum, it is a terrorist threat. the reality is after the u.s. pulled out of somalia in 1995, after the black hawk down incident that eluded to, somalia became more stable, more economically viable, and less threatening than the past. 1998, 1999,2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, there's no threat at all. in 2006, the counterterrorism center at west pointe wrote a report in which it says that somalia -- i think the term they used, fundamentally inhospitable to groups like al qaeda. it was an inherently bad place for terrorists to work. obviously now there are terrorists in somalia. but the thing that changed was not the somalis. it was the level of u.s.

engagement in the government. which dramatically increased starting in 2004. the reason for that stepped up interest on the part of the united states was nothing to do with what was happening on the ground in somalia and everything to do with 9/11. i'm all in favor of caution and ering on the side of caution. but they have backfired in really essential ways. that should be the source of most u.s. thinking on somalia now. not if we intervene is there a chance to make things better? if we intervene, what are the odds it will wind up making things worse because of unforeseen consequences? when i look at the counterterrorism efforts taking place there now, i'm equally concerned they are being driven not by events on the ground in somalia, which are more or less, moving in our direction, but by thing that is are happening in

afghanistan, in pakistan, in yemen. and i simply urge this subcommittee and the subcommittees to let somalia guide your somalia policy rather than any other country. >> mr. reischauer, i echoes my colleagues sentiments. in answer to your question, i think we need to look at not only the threat that emanates from there which does affect our way of life, freedom, commerce, threats to navigation, the very real threat from now that irrespective of how they got there or when they got there, the fact that al shabaab and -- has been hospitable to other terrorists movements and extremist groups. allowing them to operate in somalia, becoming sort of a

hodgepodge of characters who have gathered there, introduced to each other. including, i worry a great deal about introduced to the 30 americans and others with european and australian passports that pass through there. for all of the reasons, we need to be concerned. we also need to be concerned because we take for granted the areas in somalia, the country itself as a whole is not that chaos that we often imagine. rather than, specific regions are. mainly the south central areas where the conflict is. the other regions, somaliland has been the most democrat state in the region. puntland has it's problems. relatively speaking it's stable. we take that for granted at our own peril. somaliland will not remain the way it is forever, if it's left

in the limbo, neither engaged by the international community or part of somalia. puntland, their money buys a great number of things. includes at times, government and elders and others who accommodate pirate action. we have to avoid the moral hazard that mr. murray spoke about. we also need to realize there's no solution without engagement. we need to hold what we have, even if we recognize the limits of the positive action we can do. thank you. >> your answers are helpful in terms of pulling back and seeing the larger picture as to both the reasons for concern here, whether they manifest themselves in maritime stability, the potential spread of terrorists activity and to the neighborhood of horn of africa, as well as the thing that is transcend that, such as humanitarian concern. seems as though we have

contrarian views. not having the full benefit of your testimony earlier, i appreciate you raising different perspectives in that regard. if we could, before i conclude, let's just go back to one key point that you raise, ambassador shinn, regarding the spread of al shabaab into the surrounding neighborhood or it's affiliation , potentially with other groups who could leverage this -- i don't quite call it ungoverned space, but assemblance of ungoverned space for destabilization purposes, ideology and destabilization purposes. >> i'd be happy to do that. i agree with bronwyn on one part. if you go back to the 1990s, we have documentary evidence, documents from al qaeda collected by the united states

government, they are now translated, declassified, and available at west pointe. they point out al qaeda had a horrible time getting engaged in somalia. they ran into the same problem that everyone runs into, they are individualist, very hard to get along with, and it's hard to get them to do anything. al qaeda was just tearing it's hair out. at some point along the way, al qaeda did make some -- did have some recruits. did have some progress in somalia. bruton cited events in 2006. do you agree with that? >> only partially. the next step is you go up to 198, the bombing in the key al

qaeda actors had support. they took refuge, three of them in somalia. all three happen to be dead now. it took a long time to track them down. they are now all gone. the point is at some point between the very early 1990s and the late 1990s, there began to be a stronger connections between somalia and the whole terrorists network. that was before the united states got off on it's counterterrorism. after 9/11, there was an obsessive focus on terrorists. that did contribute. the problem was well under way. that can't be attributed to u.s. counterterrorism policy at that time.

now moving it all the way up to the present, what you have is a clear link between al qaeda and al shabaab, not operational control of al shabaab, but a link to. there has been training provided, minimal funding, most of al shabaab is funded internally in south central somalia by taxes and controlling the port where they make tons of money with all of the shipments going through. they get some outside money also. they have also clearly established in the last year or so rather close links with al qaeda in the arab peninsula, and this is a very scary organization. and in the linkage is of a real concern to the united states. >> is that purely ideological that religious ideology? >> it's hard to know whether it's strictly ideological, or whether it's a marriage of

convenience. there have always been links between yemen and somalia. they go back centuries. this is nothing new. the fact that you have the new terrorists groups linking up is different. that is what is of great concern to the united states. i think there's a lot we don't know about the link yet. because it is fairly -- relatively new connection. >> can you address the magnitude -- >> i really can't. i afraid that i would be getting into an area that since i don't have access to classifies information, i may simply be getting it wrong. i do know from the anecdotal information that's out there, including the announcement just the other day in the "washington post" and "the new york times" of the somali who has now been brought to the united states for trial. he was picked up commuting between yemen and somalia, and the° according to the press

reports, he was in connection with aqap. this is a clear piece of evidence. that in and of itself doesn't prove a lot. i've also heard from african union personnel, they are greatly concerned about the link between aqap and al shabaab. i think it is worrisome. this has gone beyond somalia. we also have the bombing of al shabaab in uganda just a year ago this month. there are links that are now starting to extend beyond the borders. this is what should concern the united states. >> well, there's a refugee problem in kenya now as well. >> there is that also. one more question back to the strength and potential for the african union for stabilization purposes. minimum, that's the trajectory here? >> i think the african union forces made -- when they went in

there, they went in without a clear strategy other than a broad mandate to the peace keepers and to protect the government. for most of the last four years, nine or ten months ago, the chief duty was to literally the physical protection of the so-called government that was confined to the presidential villa and, you know, occasional mad dashes to the airport. >> so they are concentrated in one place. >> in one place. since then they have made some expansion. they don't have enough to hold that. that presupposed a train on the somali national security force of those of large. eight out of nine has deserted. that's not coming. secondly, you need a political strategy. that's clearly absent whether you give them a year or what, unless it develops. we have to rethink the political goals because, you know, they said, you know, war is the continuation of politics by other means. we haven't figured out what

political objectives, achievable ones that we want the warriors to do. it does them a disservice. if you could just return, sir, just one moment to the earlier discussion of al shabaab. agree with -- the anecdotal evidence that ambassador shinn eluded to, is there quite a number of links going back, both ideological and of convenience. two years ago, we had the yemen -- the suicide bombing which took the lives of a number of south korean tourist. the fellow who carried out that attack is who we have from completion and martyred on video. he was trained there. and came back. it goes back way. earlier, they helped rescue shabaab when they were on the last ropes when the islamist

made the mistake of engaging the ethiopian defense forces out in the open and were destroyed. there's been a back and forth. what's worry? is al shabaab's reach into the diaspora's community. it has the reach and it provides the facility if you will to the yemenis and other al qaeda groups, we are in for serious trouble. >> address that. religious ideology, some strange nationalism we're not able to identify with, or something else convenience? when you are talking about it's spreading to the diaspora, i assume it's based on primarily religious ideology. >> it's a mixture on religion and nationalism. the ideology is there. the leadership of shabaab, most of them are veterans of jihad in south asia. they have been to kashmir,

pakistan, afghanistan, some of the middle commanders are actually foreigners. so they are -- international do you have the idea of magnitude, size of this problem? >> well, the side of al shabaab shifts. you have the core group and clan militias that switch allegiances depending on circumstances. the number of most analyst at least play around with and it's only a guess. because it's probably in the low thousands, maybe up to five. but at times, they can capture the loyalty of certain clans or subclans. each subclan has it's own armed force. those can be purchased. at other times, they can purchase whole units even from the transitional governmental forces. >> congressman, if i might just add to that, i've done a lot of research on the issue of particularly the foreign element in al shabaab and the strength of the organization.

no one knows other than al shabaab with certainty how many armed followers it has in the country. the low estimate is about 4,000. the estimates go up to 6 or 7,000 of armed persons at any given time in the country. the more interesting part of the equation though is the number of those who are not local somalis from inside of somalia itself. there's pretty much agreement that in terms of the true foreigners, that is those who have no somali ethnic connection, not from the somali diaspora, the number is probably around 3 hurricane. we used to say 200, we think it may have done up, 2 or 300. not a huge number. that is pakistanis or folks from the coast. most of them do tend to be from the coast of kenya and tunisia and other parts of africa from india, from bangladesh from

india or the europe countries will institute the 2 or 300. then there's somalis outside, and who have lived from all of much of their live outside of somali, including the 30 from the united states we talked about. that number could be as high as 1,000 or so. again the numbers are fuzzy. it's a fairly significant number. that's what we are facing with al shabaab. primarily somalis from somalia, and then the somali diaspora, the ethnic link, and the real hard core group which is ideological and committed and ruthless. they are the folks that from to jihad battles or the coast, they are not somalis. >> is there complexity with al shabaab and piracy, or is that random criminal activity?

>> that is being searched for and continues to be searched for. the links appear to be certainly not motivational. the pirates are criminals there inspired by the need for money. al shabaab has certainly in the core leadership has clearly ideologically motivate. i think there's a number around that that has -- as dr.pham has talked about, they come and go and are likely to be as motivated by money as anybody else. the situation is not crystal clear. there seems to be clearly some financial transactions have gone on between the pirates and al shabaab. exactly how much money is involved is unclear. but they are almost certainly going to be really a version of a shakedown, a version of extortion, and in the same way that the pirates are paying if you like a fee or taxes to clan

leaders or political figures in various parts of puntland and the north of the south central region. al shabaab appears to have got in on the act and are squeezing some of the more southernly pirate groups. some money is probably migrating across. where that none is going within al shabaab is unclear? staying within the peripheral groups or going into the center? somebody might now. i don't. it's not in the open sources. >> if i could add, i agree with everything that dr. murphy said. there's a fascinating reporting piece, a rather long piece that reuters did yesterday that claims to document payments that al shabaab has extracted from various organizations. it's about the most thoroughly documented piece of reporting that i've seen. i'd be happy to share it with

your staff. >> if i may point out. >> yes. >> we're using the word al shabaab as it refers to a cohesive entity with a single ideology. i think it's important to point out 90% of the members of al shabaab, the people that will call themselves from day to day or once a week are motivated by money. so far we think the pirate connection is largely motivated by money. it's also important to remember that al shabaab in addition to having a money motive has a local agenda, which has been shown to vastly supersede any international agenda that it has. when we talk about the 30 american who's have gone from minnesota and other parts of the united states to fight for al shabaab, the vast majority of them went in 2007. during the ethiopian occupation, when there was reports of ethiopian troops raping somali

women. the number of recruits since the ethiopian invasion ended is quite small. i'm also concerned when we talk about potential links with al qaeda in the arabian peninsula, of course, it's the worry. but i think that there's a big difference between being worried and having actual proof. in 2006, the united states stated that the union of islamic courts which has been in control of mogadishu has been run by members of al qaeda. that turned out to be accurate. we used it to justify the ethiopian invasion, which triggered the migration from u.s. to somalia, brought al shabaab to power. the risks are much higher here than we are allowing. the i think the u.s. has had a much more direct role in stimulating the terrorists threat from somalia than we feel comfortable in admitting. in particular, i think we should really keep in mind that al

shabaab has a motive that has nothing to do with ideology and everything to do with dollar signs. >> clearly a complex situation and a place where governing structures are weak and collapsing. other forces, whether it be nationalistic, religiously ideology motives and criminal activity filling the space with the potential for exporting of those activities which should be a worry, mitigated by some of the concerns that you raise that might round the edges of the controversy. i think if you will accept that, that's as fair of a summer as i can make. it's been very helpful to me to hear your testimony and what clearly is a complex situation. but to raise awareness of this for the american people through this hearing, i think it's been an important outcome. i appreciate your time and willingness to testify here, as well as your background and expertise on these issues. with that, if any members of the committee have further

questions, they will submit that to you in writing. the committee is now adjourned. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]

>> next up here on c-span2, we'll be going to a joint hearing of the house agriculture and natural resources committees. also at this hour on our cam -- companion network c-span, we expect to hear from president obama at any moment. he met last time with congressional leaders on the white house to work out a deal on the debt and deficits, and more talks scheduled for this afternoon at 2:00. watch the president's briefing live on our companion network c-span. here on c-span2, the house agriculture committee held a hearing on friday to examine a draft plan that will effectively ban hydraulic drilling for oil and gas in virginia and west virginia. hydraulic drilling is also known as fracking, it injects waters into underground rock to release gas into wells.

here are the first 450 -- 45 minutes of that hearing. >> i think by my measure it's competitive. >> we think the consumer should have better access. >> tonight, matt wood and chris discuss the choices consumers are making in the wireless phone market. the communicators on c-span2. >> the library of congress today features one-of-a-kind presidential papers, poet -- photos, music, video, and more. >> this is the largest map collection in the world. >> this has 62 million. >> 14 million pictures. >> we have over 8,500 cases.

each case has about five draws in it. >> the george washington papers have about 65,000. we have the thomas jefferson papers. they have about 27,000 items. >> c-span takes you behind the scenes at the largest library in the world. the library of congress. a c-span original document next monday at 8 eastern and pacific. >> now on to the house agriculture and natural resources subcommittees. they held a joint hearing on friday to look at the forest service plan that would ban hydraulic drilling for oil and gas on federal lands in virginia and west virginia, again, it's known as fracking where you inject water and chemicals to release natural gas into wells. this is the first 45 minutes of that hearing.

>> the subcommittee hearing will come to order. the chairman notes the presence of a quorum. under natural resources committee is three members. the natural resources and the agriculture committee are meeting today to hear testimony on challenges facing domestic oil and gas development, review of bureau of land management/u.s. service ban on drilling on federal lands. under natural resources committee, opening statements are limited to the chairman and ranking member of the subcommittee. in addition, opening statements will be offered today by the chairman and ranking member of the agriculture subcommittee, and should they wish to participate, the full committee chairman and ranking members of both committees. in addition, i ask consent to conclude any other members opening statements if submitted to the clerk by close of business today. hearing no objection, so

ordered. i now recognize myself for five minutes for an opening statement. today the subcommittee is reviewing the future of oil and gas on federal land in light of administration proprosals to enact on federal lands. earlier this year, the u.s. forest service of george washington national forest released a forest plan that had the administration's referred alternative as a ban on horizontal drilling on more than one million acres of federal, mineral estate. this plan as proposed by the administration would essentially close the entire resource to energy development, eliminate a key priority in the multiple use mission of forest service lands, and further erode our efforts to generate domestic energy security. while efforts are proposed by the forest service to close the acres to domestic development of our own natural gas, the point l

& g terminal operated by dominican, purchased nine million feet of natural source. while our forest services is working to close the american lands to drilling, we are importing natural gas from norway to meet the domestic needs of virginia and maryland. while the forest service is pursuing the ban, blm is in the process of holding hearings in the west to pursue the policies of use of the fracking on federal lands. hydraulic fracturing. we have not seen evidence of any adverse effects as a result of the use of the chemicals that are part of the fracking technology, unquote. this is important because a 2009 2009 blm says that application of horizontal drilling is

increasing. the blm strongly supports the environmental best management practice as a means of providing substantial reductions in surface disturbance. and overall impacts from oil and gas development, unquote. blm says horizontal drills is an environmental best management practice. and there is no evidence of any adverse effects. and yet the policy of this administration now appears to be an outright ban, starting with 1.1 million in virginia. the key questions for the committee today is how did that policy proposal from the forest service reach this point? how did our land managers determine that the best policy is an outright band on development and what does it do for the future? americans are desperate for new jobs, todays jobs report says the economy continues to struggle with only 18,000 new jobs created in june. that is why it makes so little sense to ban domestic

development here while we continue a dependence in the case of virginia and maryland on norwegian natural gas. the forest service as a custodian of our lands has an obligation to work with the multiple use mission to serve the people of virginia and the united states by promoting the conservation of our resources which undenially should include the development of appropriate oil and gas resources on federal lands. i think look to hearing from our witnesses today. i now recognize the ranking member, representative holtz of new jersey for five minutes for his opening statement. >> thank you. and will the subcommittee chairman of the appropriations -- of the agriculture subcommittee chair and ranking also get? >> absolutely. >> good, thank you. thank you, mr. chairman. according to the title of today's hearing, there is a ban on horizontal drills on federal

lands imposed by this administration. not true. unfortunately, once again, this is a hearing title which amounts to a broad and misleading generalization and another case of blowing than issue far out of proportion to score what seemed to be political or ideological points. in fact, the so-called ban in question is actually one of seven possibly alternatives of a draft environmental impact statement issued as part of the required update of the land resource management plan for the george washington national forest. let me reiterate, no decisions have been made on whether or not to allow horizontal drilling in the george washington national forest. now it's appropriate that we have a hearing on it. all that has happened, though, is that the forest service is evaluating the environmental impact of a number of alternatives as required by law.

they should be looking at these alternatives. we should be looking at them too. none of the alternatives discussed in the eis, would change the existing practices of allowing traditional vertical, oil and gas drilling in george washington forecast for -- fore, for the i forget how many acres under lease. 12,000 acres under lease. furthermore, none of the alternatives it appears are going to -- well, we will look at those alternatives. horizontal drills is commonly used in association with hydraulic fracturing. recent investigations have raised questions about potential water quality hazards associated with fracking and there's currently a study of potential effects being conducted by the environmental protection agency. the counties of rockingham, augusta, and shenandoah, virginia, three of the largest

have expressed their opposition to allowing horizontal drilling in the national forest because of concerns about water quality. the city of harris sonnenberg and stanton, they have passed similar. to underscore the importance of being cautious about moving forward, the george washington national forecast protects a number of river basins, including the potomac river that provides drinking water for you here in washington, d.c. given the local concerns and the unanswered questions, the forest service, i believe, is acting responsibly with their proposed eis and the procedure with it. while we wait for the facts to be assembled, which is the point that i want to make. even if the forest service were eventually to decide to prohibit horizontal drills in the george washington forest, it should be

based on facts. and we know it would not be a permanent ban. the forest service has made it clear if natural gas can be assessed in nearby areas on private lands without adverse impact to water quality, the service should consider and reconsider the issue. but banned or permitted, the decision should be based on evidence. the distortion in title of today's hearing makes me wonder how grounded in evidence this discussion will be. now in the last 20 years, natural gas development on federal lands has more than doubles from 1.2 trillion cubic feet 20 years ago to about 3 trillion cubic feet last year. moreover, 90% of the wells employ hydraulic fractures.

overall, u.s. natural gas production is at it's highest level ever. you know, the plans for terminals to important, liquidify natural gas, because there's likely for as far as we can see export. those are the facts as they see them. i hope we will restrict the hearing to wherever possible, evidence and facts. >> thank you. i now recognize the gentleman of pennsylvania, and also the chairman on conservation, energy and forestry, mr. thompson, five minutes for his opens statement. >> thank you, ranking members holt and holden, i appreciate your effort in holding the important hearing.

since the inception, the national forest system has intended for mobile use, it includes tourism and, yes, mineral extraction. i don't have to look any further than the allegheny national forest which is the 5th district of pennsylvania. which i'm proud to represent. the oil industry was born there. since it's founding 54 years later, oil and gas production has conned in the nearby allegheny national forest. some will have you believe that natural resource production, whether it's oil, gas, coal, or timber, and environmental stewardship are mutually exclusive. nothing could be farther from the truth. for those that think otherwise, come to pennsylvania and the allegheny forest yourself. we have successfully produced for decades while protecting the environment. we boast of having the linest hardwoods in the world.

because of the value, the amf, perhaps one the only national forest that makes money. because we are blessed with abundant natural resources, pennsylvania is returning to the energy roots with the production of natural gas which shale fields which many experts feel is one the largest in the world. the allegheny national forest is part of that. through hydraulic fractures, production of oil and natural gas through the shale formations are possibly. plain english, no practicetures meaning no natural gas and no energy security. it has brought 100,000 new jobs, significant new tax revenues, over $200 million to build new roads, none of taxpayers dollars, and natural gas to the country. after four years of production, and less than 10% developed,

marcellus is providing. access to affordable natural gas impacts consumers. because of the production of shale gas by the horizontal drilling, our citizens could afford to heat their hope, and the price of many goods are no increase in cost because of gas prices. natural gas which sold four years ago for record prices of over $13 a cubic feet has been stabilized to $4.50. they were set to move offshore just a few years ago because of high and unsustainable natural gas prices. fortunately, because of our ability to produce shale gas and fracturing, they are now planning to expand the operations in the united states. jobs. make no mistake, our affordable and predictable natural gas prices are the direct result of

the ability to produce it through horizontal and fracturing. it will have it's challenges. i am convinced we can meet the challenges and do it effectively. knowing the need for affordable energy which we are blessed with, i'm extremely concern about the forest service placing a moratorium on applications for permits to drill any quote, horizontal well fracturing. not only does it under mine the mission of use, but it also comes at a time when we are becoming more dependent and when world energy consumption continues to increase. while the federal government continues to stymie development. let's not forget that oil, gas, coal, and all minerals are not owned, but by the citizens of our country and would greatly benefit from their protection. any action to prevent should be based on sound science and fact, not philosophy and not political agendas.

the basic question that i have regarding the decision by the department of agriculture and the forecast service, the place -- or propose a moratorium, utilizing hydraulic drilling and fractures is when and why did they come to the conclusion that these processes should be banned in the forest? did they perform environmental and economic analysis? do they have any evidence that horizontal drilling and hydraulic fractures are inherent threat to the forest, human health, or water supply in it appears to me the forest service has no credible reason for moving. i assume the witnesses think otherwise and they will present logical science-based facts for moratorium. i want to thank director abbey, mr. holtrop and mr. ferguson.

>> thank you, i now recognize mr. holden for five minutes. >> thank you. i want like to thank our witnesses for being here. in times of the global and economic stability, it is time that the united states moves towards a stable future with long and lasts benefits. it includes a safe oil and gas production as the portfolio. while there's no ban on drills on federal and draft management plan proposed to not allow drilling on the parcel of land in the george washington national forest in virginia and west virginia. following normal process for issuance of any forest manage, this draft proposal is currently available for public comment and still open for revision. drilling occurs on public land every day and over five million acres are currently leased for oil, gas, coal, and phosphate mining. they have responsibilities

related to the approval of oil and gas. though the forest service has the option to object, more than 7,200 applications and permit to drill on public land and indian lands are expected to be processed this year by blm. up from approximately 5,000 in 2010. america's public lands and resources contributed more than $112 billion to the u.s. economy and supported more than -- half a million jobs in 2010. the bulk of which came from management of mineral resources and recreation. the public lands managed by the bom and forest service are some of the greatest assets environmentally and economically. i am hopeful the agency realize the economic importance of u.s. government production. the natural gas industry has safely and responsibly been operating on taxpayer-owned lands for years. the responsible production of domestic future creates tens of

thousands of jobs, raised more revenue for the taxpayers than it spends, and help stimulate investment innovation by businesses. i look forward to the testimony, and the opportunity to listen to this important issue. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you. as each of the chairman and ranking members of the full committees appear, they will be given an opportunity to make an opening statement. i now recognize the gentleman from massachusetts, the ranking member of the committee, mr. markey for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. very much. recent advancements in natural gas drills technology have unlocked natural gas supplies in shale and other unconventional formations across the country. leading to a significant expansion of natural gas production, including on blm-managed public lands. currently 90% of all new wells on public lands are hydraulically fractured.

to explain the hydraulic fracturing process, talisman came up with a book that follows the friendly dinosaur through the natural gas drilling process. the lovable dinosaur playfully promotes the benefits of natural gas and paints a picture of a magical word filled with smiling rocks and grinning animals. the problem is that unless you are a dinosaur named talisman terry, the world does not exist. in fact, talisman means lucky charm. which is what everyone else will need if you listen to the dinosaur. in the absence of real safety procedures put in place, everyone will need a talisman, a

lucky charm, an object with magical powers. and i understand why you would name your corporation that. but i don't think we should case our public health and safety laws upon that premise. for communities around this country, the expansion of natural gas drilling and hydraulic fracturing has meant contamination of water supplies, loss of property value, deteriorating conditions, and destruction of pristine forest and lands. the recent series of reports in the "new york times" have highlighted some of the potential risk of natural gas drilling and inconsistent efforts to regulate the industry. for example, they reported that the hydraulic wells is often contaminated by metals, salt, cancer-causing chemicals such as benzene and radioactive

elements. the treatment plants are not capable of removing the contaminants. the waste water can also enter into local waterways and the equipment failure can cause tens of thousands of gallons of chemical-based water to spew out of the well and into nearby creeks. the fluids are toxic that a study by forest researchers published earlier this week found that when fractures fluided were spilled in the forest, they killed all plants and trees. the disposal of drills waste water disposes threats. particularly when public drinking water systems rely on waterways, where waste is being discharged. : national forest

to be purchased about private individuals. this protected forest land and habitat for hundreds of animals which drives tourism for the local economy and provides a safe source of drinking water to almost 300,000 local residents. even more so, although this forest is located in virginia, it protects the source of water

that feeds our faucets right here in washington, d.c. while horizontal drilling has never occurred in the george washington national forest, expansion of these technologies without adequate safety and oversight could threaten natural resources and has the potential of turning stretches of forests into lifeless dunes, an environment that would only support the imaginary the fracasaurus. while the discovery of new gas sources creates a domestic energy and economic opportunity and we should try to capture that economic opportunity we must also ensure that this exploration and production of natural gas is done safely and responsibly and leaves us with a forest full of trees for another century and not a chemical waste land. i thank you.

>> thank you. we will now hear from our witnesses. i would like to invite feeder the honorable bob abbey the honorable joel holtrop, accompanied by mr. tony ferguson director of the mineral geology for the u.s. forest -- i thank you all for being here. like all of our witnesses your written testimony will appear in full in the hearing record so i ask that you keep your oral statements to five minutes as outlined in our invitation letter to you and under committee rule 4a. our microphones are not automatic so you need to turn them on when you begin talking. i also want to explain how the timing lights work, when you begin the clerk will start the clock and a green light will appear after four minutes, a yellow light will appear and after five minutes the red light comes on. at that point i would ask you to conclude. mr. abbey, you may begin. thank you all for being here. >> thank you. and chairman and members of the subcommittee, once again it's my honor to appear before the

members here. to talk about the blm's role and the responsible development of and so i gas resources from the public lands and the onshore mineral state. because there is no ban on blm drilling, it's my intention to talk about the policies which include implements reforms and patrolling development in alaska, continuing timely processing of drilling permits, improving inspection enforcement and production accountability and reviewing hydraulic fracking policies and practices. the secretary salazar has emphasized that as we move toward the new energy frontier, conventional energy resources from blm-managed public lands will continue to play a critical role in meeting the nation's energy needs. facilitating the efficient, responsible development of domestic oil and gas resources is part of this administration's

broad energy strategy that will protect consumers, help reduce our dependence on foreign oil, create well-paying jobs and provide revenues and economic activity to communities. in fiscal year 2010, more than 114 million barrels of oil were produced from the blm's mineral state, the most since 1997. also in 2010, the nearly 3 trillion cubic feet of natural gas produced from public lands made it the second most productive year on record. federal oil and gas royalties in 2010 exceeded $2.5 billion, half of which were paid directly to the states where the development occurred. leasing reforms at the bureau of management put in place in may of 2010, established an orderly, open and environmentally sound process for developing oil and gas resources on public lands. these reforms focus on making oil and gas leasing more

predictable, increasing certainty for stakeholders including the industry and restoring needed balance with comprehensive up front analysis added to the process. in the 23 million-acre national petroleum reserve in alaska the blm has an active leasing program underway. over 1.6 million acres are currently under lease in that area. the blm has offered six lease sales in the ntra over the last 12 years. we plan to hold a lease sale in december 2011 and each year thereafter. through careful planning, the blm's leasing program in the national petroleum reserve in alaska ensures that exploration and development of its oil and natural gas resources is done in a manner that protects wildlife inhabitat and honors the subsistence value of the residents. the blm continues processing applications for permits to drill on federal and indian

land. so far the blm received over 2600 applications for permits to drill and processed over 2800. we recognize that oil and gas development is a market-driven activity. it is industry's choice as to when or even whether to start drilling a well within the two-year period after an application for permit -- for drilling has been approved. as of june 1st, industry has not yet started drilling on nearly 7100 applications for permits to drill that have already been approved by the bureau of management. to improve inspection, enforcement and production accountability we have developed a strong technical certification program for all of our oil and gas-filled inspectors. our personnel completed over 31,000 inspections in fiscal year 2010. these inspections ensure that leasees meet environmental and safety requirements and that the reported oil and gas volume match the actual production on the ground. recently we've seen increasing interests in the use of hidra d

-- hydraulic fracking. the blm is public engaging the public, states and industries on this issue. in april of 2011, the blm held a series of regional public forums on the use of hydraulic fracking. over 600 members of the public participated in these forms. squint with the framework for the president's blueprint for a secure future, the blm is working on the petroleum and natural gas development on our public lands are realized. mr. chairman, again, it's pleasure for me to be here and i'd be happy to answer any questions that the members may have. >> thank you for your testimony. we'd like to now hear from the next witness, mr. holtrop. >> thank you for allowing me to talk about the future of gas and oil development. accompanying is tony ferguson our minerals and management and

maureen hyzer from the jefferson national forests. to begin i want to be clear the u.s. forest service has no policy nor do we have any plans to develop any policy to ban horizonzontal drilling in the associated hydraulic fracking. and it's based on local community concerns that we take very seriously. the forest service is committed to doing our part to contribute to the nation's energy goals while at the same time protecting the landscapes and watersheds that are precious to so many. the forest service and the blm work closely in managing and delivering the mineral and energy programs in the united states. the agencies follow congressionally authorized mandates that allow for the responsible development of domestic energy in mineral resources. generally speaking, the forest service manages the surface national forest service lands while the blm manages the subsurface. the blm issues leases for

exploration in development of energy minerals after receiving consent from the forest service for leasing those national forest system lands. the forest service bases its decision on whether to consent to leaseing on guidance provided in our forest plans. forest plans guide the management of national forest system lands and are developed in an open process gathering input from local and state government, interest groups and private citizens. in the forest planning process, the agency strives to balance resource development with protecting the landscapes and watersheds that communities depend upon. the current oil and gas production on national forest system lands is sizeable. 16.7 million barrels of oil and 194 million cubic feet of natural gas was produced in 2010 from almost 3,200 federal lands on national forest service lands and in addition there are almost 12,800 additional wells located on national forest system lands

where the subsurface is privately owned but majority of which are located on the allegheny national forest in pennsylvania. in fiscal year 2010, production from federal wells alone generated an estimated $361 million in payments to the u.s. treasury. a large portion of this revenue is returned to states and counties. the forest service is committed to providing these energy resources and their benefits to the american people in a way that is consistent with our mission to safeguard the health, diversity and productivity of our nation's forests and grasslands. we understand that some members of the subcommittees are concerned about the draft forest plan for the george washington national forest in northern virginia and west virginia. that proposes several options for public comment, one of which is a preferred option that provides for oil and gas leasing but would prohibit horizontal drilling in associated hydraulic fracking in certain areas of the forest. it includes several alternatives which would allow for horizontal

drilling. we will carefully consider all public comments prior to the regional forester making a final decision in the george washington national forest plan. the forest service is accepting comments on the draft forest plan through september 1. as with all our forest plans, this plan is place-specific based on the particular circumstances of the george washington national forest and does not represent a broader policy with regard to hydraulic fracking. there is no discussions or efforts underway to develop a national policy to ban horizontal drilling. on the contrary, the administration believes that the recent technological advances that have allowed industry to access abundant reserves of natural gas particularly from shale formations provides enormous potential benefits to the country as long as it is done in a way that protects public health and the environment. the environmental protection agency is currently studying

potential impacts to water resources from hydraulic fracking and the secretary of energy advisory board is developing recommendations on fraz and steps that can be taken to improve the safety and environmental performance of shale extraction. the forest service will move forward to allow the safe and responsible development of domestic oil and gas resources consistent with the expert recommendations from these and other efforts. thank you for the opportunity to provide information about the oil and gas program on the national forests and clarify the situation related to horizontal drilling in associated hydraulic fracking. i look forward to answering any questions that you may have. >> thank you both for your testimony. a housekeeping note, we will soon be going to the floor as they call votes and it will be a lengthy series of votes. so when that time happens, i will remind everyone that we will have to leave and i'll set a time for us to come back hopefully giving some certainty

for everyone's schedule who are here today, especially, those of you who are witnesses. in fact, they have just called votes. i think we have time to do the first couple sets of questions for approximately 10 minutes, two sets of five-minute questions and we'll reset the subcommittee and we'll set a time for coming back so thank you for your patience. i wish it didn't happen but we don't have any control over that part of our schedule. ms. hyzer, as we've all read this morning -- oh, and by the way, each member will be recognized for five minutes for questions and i'll open up. ms. hyzer as we have read this morning our national unemployment rate, unfortunately, has risen to 9.2% in june with only 18,000 jobs generated nationwide last month. when you decided to include a horizontal drilling ban in your draft forest plan, did you consult with the commonwealth of

virginia or anyone else for that matter on the impact that that would have on existing and future job growth in the energy development sector? >> congressman, first of all, i'd like to thank you for asking me to this hearing and giving me the opportunity to answer questions about the forest plan. we are in a draft comment period. and i want to let you know that the testimony and statements that are made today, the transcript will be taken into consideration and part of the planning record. in answer to your question, early on we understood and believed that energy development was very important in virginia. and that's why we decided to go ahead and address the need to make lands available for oil and gas leasing. it was a very important consideration for us. >> specifically, i asked did job growth or job creation factor in at all to your decision-making process thus far? >> we understood the

relationship of energy development and jobs in virginia, yes. >> so you're saying you did take that into account? >> we will continue to take that into account and we welcome additional information on that subject due to the comment period we can take into final decision. >> okay. did you seek to find out if there was any horizontal drilling or hydraulic fracking going on any nearby public lands that may have done in a safe and proper manner? >> in virginia, there has yet to be any hydraulic fracking done in the marcellus virginia area so we did not have information available to us as to what the impacts would be. >> and anywhere else in the country even farther distances away did you look -- >> this is a local-based -- >> when i think is a good safety record in -- >> this is a local-based plan.

and so we focused our analysis and our information-gathering on virginia. and that's what our focus was, local-based. it's a community-based plan. >> okay. thank you. chief holtrop, a recent study development of the marcellus shale added over 44,000 new jobs in pennsylvania, 389 million in state and local tax revenue, over 1 billion in federal tax revenue and nearly 4 billion in value-added to the state's economy. similarly, in west virginia it created over 13,000 new jobs and contributed over 220 million in federal, state and local tax revenue. and almost a billion dollars added to the state's economy. when proposing possible job-killing regulations or administrative actions, do you do a cost-benefit analysis on the outcomes of local job growth

and revenues? >> we do take into account the economic impacts and the implications of decisions that we make. again, i would like to stress there have been no decisions made in the george washington national forest plan. it's a draft that's open for public comment at this time. but in the analysis of that or any other forest plan process that we go through, yes, one of the things that we take into account are the economic opportunities that are presented by the -- opportunities to do research extraction or recreational activities and that's what we take into account just as we take into account the concerns over the use of water or the concerns with water, et cetera. one of the things -- i think another demonstration of the importance of the jobs and economics is in the draft forest plan for the george washington, the proposal is to open nearly a million acres of the george washington national forest to

oil and gas leasing. >> okay. thank you. at this point, i will yield back the remaining time and i'll recognize the ranking member for any questions he may have for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. mr. abbey, let me begin with you. much of the concern about hydraulic fracking fluids have related to the types of chemicals that are pumped into the ground and then come back out of the ground sometimes with added contaminants including naturally occurring radioactive materials. it's been reported that wastewater from hydraulically fractured wells in pennsylvania and west virginia have been sent to sewage plants that were not able to remove the radioactive contaminants, even though the levels were as high as 2,000 times epa's drinking water's

standards. and then radioactive water was released into waterways as it was reported. as a requirement for drilling permits on federal lands, does the blm require assurance that radioactive wastewater will not be dumped into rivers or onto public lands? >> congressman holt, certainly water management is a big concern for all of us -- >> specifically radioactivity. >> it's based upon the applicant being able to produce a permit from the authorizing local community or the authorizing officials -- >> so it goes to the state or local officials. this is not a blm criterion. >> exactly, exactly. >> as a requirement for drilling permits on federal lands does the bureau require any radio logical monitoring for drilling wastes for protection of either the public or the workers?

>> again, we would defer back to the state our local government officials who have that responsibility. >> okay. in light of local developments do you plan to revise your plan that it doesn't lead to public or worker exposures to radioactivity. >> our current regulations relating hydraulic fracking on public lands or federal minerals are 30 years old. we're currently reviewing those regulations to determine what, if any, changes we'd like to make and pursue any new rulemaking that may be required. >> i hope you pursue that aggressively because -- yes, fracking has been used for decades on a very small scale but on this scale it's new. i hope you will pursue that. mr. holtrop, nepa, one of the best features of the

environmental protection law is -- it provides for american citizens to have input into the decades. how did they engage the local stakeholders in the public process? and in particular i'm interested in the consideration you were talking about economic considerations. i'm particularly interested in the consideration of agricultural jobs. are you getting good input on that aspect? let me interrupt you for just a moment. in my opening statement, i commented that several agriculturally intensive counties had issued public objections. >> the process that the george washington national forest has gone through as well as the process that occurs across the country during these forest planning processes is very much as you indicated, a public

process and we consider that one of the real positive benefits of the approach that we take to get that type of input. in the case of the george washington national forest, we did have public meetings throughout the area, the communities affected and interested in the george washington. there are letters that we've received from three of the counties in the george washington and two of the cities associated with the george washington all requesting that the forest service take a hard look or in some cases asking us to not allow horizontal drilling or hydraulic fracking, et cetera. so taking those into account is one of those -- not the only consideration but certainly one of the considerations that we would expect our local managers to do as they're determining what's the right course of action on a forest planning process. >> just a quick question.

isn't it correct that no -- except with the consent of the surface managing agency. >> that's true. >> and that would be who? >> in the case of washington, it would be the u.s. -- >> thank you, mr. ranking member. we will now be in recess until 12:30. a lot of a crystal ball to know exactly when our vote series will finish. it is a lengthy vote series. the good news, it's the only one of the day. but to give certainty for all of you who came here and we appreciate it to give your testimony as well as any other concerned citizens, we thought it would be good to give a time certain for reconvening so you won't know we won't be there anytime before that. we'll reconvene at 12:30 and the subcommittee will be here in recess.

[inaudible conversations] >> you can watch this hearing on oil and gas drilling in its entirety online at c-span.org. also today, president obama just wrapping up a press briefing on the debt and deficit talks held at the white house last night. you can watch that in its entirety as well as c-span.org. a meeting set for later today with the president, the vice president, and congress to continue to work toward a deal on the debt and deficit. that's scheduled for 2:00 pm eastern and you can follow continuing coverage of those talks on the c-span networks. >> i think by any measure it's an effectively competitive industry. >> we think there are too many structural barriers to entry and

growth by these competitive options that consumers should have better access to. >> tonight, the wireless association's representative discuss a new fcc report on the choices consumers are making in the wireless phone market. the communicators on c-span2. >> i want to emphasize that nothing is agreed to until everything's agreed to. and the parties are still far apart on a wide range of issues. >> the debt limit is the legal limit on borrowing by the federal government. and since 1962, has been raised 74 times. the last time in february 2010. learn more and follow the process of raising the debt ceiling online with the c-span video library. search, watch, clip and share. it's washington your way. ♪ >> next we'll take a look at u.s. training programs for police in developing countries. several agencies are responsible for training and equipping police in afghanistan, iraq, pakistan and dozens of other countries.

among the participants at this upcoming event are a former commanding general who was involved in the transitional security command in iraq and the author of a new book released by the u.s. agency for international development as a guide for civilian police training. hosted by the u.s. institute of peace, this event runs about two hour hours. >> good morning, everyone. thank you very much for coming. my name is bob perito, i'm the director of the center for security sector governance here at the united states institute of peace. i'd like to welcome everyone. and i'd like to welcome c-span who are responsible for the robot cameras all around us. we have -- we've had over 250 rsvp's for this event. the size of the turnout on a

friday morning on july i think speaks to the importance of the topic and to the extent of interest on this topic in washington. as many of you in this audience knows, the u.s. has been involved in training u.s. police forces since u.s. marines started created u.s. constableary forces in caribbean at the turn of the 20th century. a recent gao report found that in 2009, the last for which there were complete statistics available apparently there were seven u.s. government agencies involved in providing police assistance to 107 countries. in 1974, congress temporarily put a stop to u.s. police assistance efforts with the passage of section 660 of the foreign assistance act which banned police assistance using foreign assistance funds. but almost immediately the challenges of controlling narcotics trafficking, international terrorism and the

need to restore public order during peace operations starting in panama and going through el salvador, haiti, and the balkans brought a series of amendments to the foreign assistance act and new legislation that funded a variety of police assistance programs. during the 1960s, the number of police training programs proliferated but the size of those programs and the forces that we tried to create and many of us here in the room were all part of that were somewhat modest. in haiti in 1994 to 1997, the u.s. trained a police force, the first haitian national police for about $60 million we trained about 5300 cadets. in 1999, after the program started in kosovo which ended up training about 5500 personnel. in this century, however, the scope of police assistance